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Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 30 Dec, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Battle of Vienna swords and armour         Reply with quote

i would like to know as much as it is possible on the sword and armour types used and worn by the forces who fought the battle of Vienna of 1683: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna.

So it would concern troops and officers /nobility from Austria, Bavaria, Saxony,Franconia,Swabia,Zaporozhian Cossacks,
Grand Duchy of Tuscany: on the other side Ottoman Empire, Khanate of Crimea, Principality of Transylvania, Principality of Wallachia, Principality of Moldavia.

Links to museums and reenactment groups are welcome
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Dec, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can recall some stuff (mainly pictures) that might be interesting to you - but it's mainly about polish forces weapons - which are not on your list of interest.

Let me know if you are interested anyway.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Dec, 2009 11:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bartek Strojek wrote:
I can recall some stuff (mainly pictures) that might be interesting to you - but it's mainly about polish forces weapons - which are not on your list of interest.

Let me know if you are interested anyway.


They are, they are ! I omitted transcribing the polish forces in the list.

Polish/lithuanian commonwealth, obviously.
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Vaclav Homan




Location: Hradec, Czech
Joined: 22 Jan 2008

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu 31 Dec, 2009 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hallo Bruno
There is very nice documentary with reenactment company.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivERcdQdpUg
I know reenatments groups for this era bud they havent website in english.

There is http://lightswords.cz/pages/zbrane.php
Some sabres, kozak hammer and knife from 17c.
This maker is specialist to Otoman, Kozak, Hungarian and Austrian wearpons 17 century.
This page is in czech but this man speak english. He is dispose to send you pictures woodcut, fotos and links.

There is only one art of fence yet many ways to reach it
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Dec, 2009 6:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, I have exact composition of Polish Crowns forces:
(translation is mine, so may not be accurate sometimes Razz )

about 10,900 "foreign autorament infantry?" - people mainly from Poland&Lithuania (but not only), armed, organized i in typical "western" way : muskeeters, pikemen etc.
1,000 Piechoty wybranieckiej (chosen infantry)
about 3,700 registered cossacks infantry
about 470 polish autorament infantry
about 180 Janissaries
about 4,000 dragoons
about 2,950 husars
about 8,860 "armoured companion" (Pancerni)
about 1,475 Reiters
about 2,730 light cavalary (including many Lipka Tatars)
about 540 arkebuzers (mounted)
about 150 artillerists , 28 cannons (commander Marcin Kątski, also commander of whole allied artillery)

Don't know the source, though. But it sums to about 37 000, so it seems OK.

Something about Pancerni - in polish, but some reconstructions in links.


Another photo of armor&weapons. You can also find something aobut them in wikipedia "Pancerni".

Here are some polish picks. Little earlier though, but could be at Vienna as well.

Here padding under armor with mail sleeves - said to belong to Leopold 1.

Here a bit about cossacks.

Can't promise it's all completely accurate period - Vienna 83, but all those "formations" were on the battlefield then.

I can't locate any english sites, so what may interest you on polish ones is generally "Galeria" (selfexplanatory), "Strój" or "Ubiór" (clothes) and "Broń" (weapons).
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Boris Bedrosov
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Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
Joined: 06 Nov 2005

Posts: 700

PostPosted: Fri 01 Jan, 2010 7:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello, Bruno!

Here in this link

http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/askeri-myuze...iya.451965

you can find a lot of pictures of many arms and armours - European and Islamic, which I took in Askeri Muze (Military Museum) in Istanbul, Turkey a couple of months ago. Virtually, every item has a tablet with short description and date (actually, I have some doubts about some of the dates, but .........)
You could figure for yourself some ideas for arms and armours - especially Ottoman, during the period of your interest.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Fri 01 Jan, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the meantime, an heartfelt thank you to anybody contributing, and my best wishes for a great 2010.
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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
Joined: 02 Sep 2008

Posts: 239

PostPosted: Fri 01 Jan, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Six years ago I visited the monastery of Kremsmuster, Austria, and if I remember correctly there was a collection of the arms and armours of the battle left as a thanks to God for the victory.

Saddenly at the times I was on a different road than today and didn't know very much about the argument, so I only remember something about some very long two-handers (and a sharp reprimand when I was tempted to touch one) and a axe-matchlock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremsm%C3%BCnster_Abbey
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Boris Bedrosov
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Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria
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PostPosted: Fri 01 Jan, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some other Ottoman arms and armours from the Slovakian Historical Museum in Bratislava

http://bbedrosov.snimka.bg/hobby/slovashki-is...40.5857420

As far as I remember, they were dated around the battle of Vienna 1683

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 3:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Obviously there were many types of troops from different countries/empires present. I'll concentrate on what I know of the Ottomans. I am in posession of "Die Karlsruher Türkenbeute" which has some pretty nice photos of some of the Ottoman arms and armour captured during the battle. Unfortunately since I can't read German, I can't get into the nitty gritty stuff.

Off the top of my head The Ottoman army of the Vienna campaign was around 60,000 - 70,000 strong, however most of these troops weren't actually at the siege and battle, as they were either garrisoning villages and forts captured in the earlier stages of the campaign or else raiding the surrounding countryside for supplies.

I don't know much about late 17th century Ottoman armies, I'm more interested in the 15th-16th century, but from what I can remember there would have been about 4 elements. The Kapikulu or Palace units who traditionally were all highly disciplined professional troops but who were also in rapid decline by this time, provincial cavalry, irregular infantry and the artillery, most of whom were actually part of the kapikulu corps. I suspect that this stage of Ottoman history irregular infantry would have been the most numerous part of the army. These were troops raised from all over the empire but especially the Balkans. they were part-time soldiers at best and while they were courageous and knew how to use a musket, they were also extremely undisciplined, unsurprisingly since most of them were peasant militias who had only been summoned for the campaign and probably couldn't speak Turkish. They would have worn their own regional costumes and been equiped with matchlock muskets and regional bladed weapons (i.e. big knives) like yataghans, kinjals and the odd sabre. early 19th century European "Orientalist" paintings are probably a good source of info on their costumes as they probably had not evolved much in the intervening period.

I would imagine that the sipahis or provincial cavalry would have been the next biggest group; they came predominantly from Asia Minor, but would have also included Crimean Tatars and Balkan cavalry. They would have been equiped with mail shirts, kulah zirahs (steel caps with an attached mail 'camail'), sabres, lances, cane shields and composite bows. In earlier centuries the sipahis had been extremely effective troops, but their old fashioned weapons and armour were no match for disciplined musketeers and they were routed by the more heavily armoured Polish Hussars.

The kapikulu corps were made up of infantry, cavalry and artillery. Originally they had been recruited from prisoners of war and the devshirme; Christian boys from Greece and the Balkan provinces who rounded up as human tribute when aged between 7 and 11 every 5 years or so, sent to Istanbul and trained into fearsomely effective and disciplined troops. By the late 17th century the devshirme had virtually disappeared and most of the kapikulu troops were Muslim Turkish volunteers and the unit had become almost hereditary. The kapikulu infantry were the famous janissaries, who by this time were mainly armed with muskets. They still had their distinctive uniforms, but by the late 17th century these seem to have only been worn by officers, most rank and file janissaries only wore their uniforms on special occasions, the rest of the time they wore civilian clothing. The kapikulu cavalry had similar equipment to the sipahis, except it was usually of higher quality, many probably also had flintlock pistols carried in holsters on the saddle.

Ottoman armies also had large bands to inspire their troops. These probably had a huge influence on the development on the development of Western European martial music. There is still a janissary band at the Topkapi palace in Istanbul:
http://www.ittmt.org/mehter_eng.htm
http://www.theottomans.org/english/campaigns_army/mehter.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_military_band

Osprey have a book on the battle of Vienna (Campaign 191) and several books on the Ottoman and Polish armies of this period.

Traditional Janissary cap
Kulah zirah
Mail shirt
Quiver and Bowcase
Arrows
Cane shield
Horse armour
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

some photos i took in the miltiary history museum in vienna, they have quite a lot of turkish booty there.
regrettably the quality is very low. its a pity they didn`t allow flash-light.

the objects on the last two photos are not directly from the battle of vienna, but date in the same decade, i took them in the castle of ambras, innsbruck, tirol



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turkish muskets

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another set of turkish muskets

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turkish maces and battleaxes

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austrian wheellock-pistol of the late style

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three turkish muskets, the carpet in the backgroung was plundered from an officers tent

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2 highly decorated ottoman muskets

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austrian cuirassiers blades

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austrian muskets, 2 with an early form of bayonet
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Sat 02 Jan, 2010 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanking again all contributors, pretty useful so far. It is a great picture that could emerge from this richness of uniforms, regional costumes, and weapons.

Turkish decorated guns are higly impressive.

The ottoman army seems to have had a taste for luxury.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jan, 2010 1:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i like these turkish guns too, its quite a different style, than what I (we?) are used to, form basic form to these interesting triggers.
as for luxury, hm, i don`t know, maybe the victors just took the pretty things an scrapped the rest ?
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Jeff Demetrick





Joined: 11 Oct 2004

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sun 03 Jan, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bruno,

I am not sure if the book Odsiecs Wiedenska 1683 by Zdzislaw Zygulski Jr. has been mentioned. Text is Polish and English. I got my copy here, http://www.polisharms.com/index.php . They have another copy http://www.polisharms.com/Bookstore/_odsiecz1683.html


All the Best
Jeff
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