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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 8:48 am    Post subject: Type XVIIIc Project Help         Reply with quote

I'm starting an XVIIIc project and I need your help. Earlier threads on this subject failed to turn up much info but I'll post my own appeal. I know the Met example and I've seen Peter Johnsson's breathtaking interpretations of the type. Does anybody know of any example of an XVIIIc with the horizontally recurved, ribbon-like cross that Oakeshott believed was typical? I'll take any reference--museums, graves, artwork, etc. Peter's sketch for Albion shows a cross of this type, but that's the only depiction I can find.

I'm going to comb my own sources, but perhaps some of you have stumbled across one of these in some small regional museum. Please share!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't tell if this is an XVIIIc (painted ca. 1495)....but just look at this thing! Eek!


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,

Not sure what you mean exactly by an "horizontally recurved, ribbon-like cross" but there is a beautifull type XVIIIc at the Royal Armouries in leeds that is very similar to the one Peter Johnson made. Notice the sandwitch grip, similar to the ones found on many messers, but very unusual on a bastard sword like this one.

Cheers,

Julien

bastard sword, possibly german, late XIV century
It bears arabic inscriptions that indicates it was kept in the armouries in Alexandria






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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very helpful! Thanks! And it's thought to be late 15th c? I thought all of the Alexandria swords were earlier than that....
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Michael G.





Joined: 25 Mar 2009

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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 6:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's one at the Philadelphia Museum of Art that looks similar to the Leeds one (and the one at the Met, and the one by Peter Johnsson).



http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/perman...mulR=30564


Seems to be a fairly common style. I kind of like it more than the S-shaped cross personally.
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Paul Watson




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael G. wrote:
There's one at the Philadelphia Museum of Art that looks similar to the Leeds one (and the one at the Met, and the one by Peter Johnsson).

http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/perman...mulR=30564


Seems to be a fairly common style. I kind of like it more than the S-shaped cross personally.


Awesome sword apart form the fact it apparently weighs 13.49 kgs. It would certainly stun you, if only your attacker could swing it with some level of accuracy.

I also notice the blade is quite short for an XVIIIc, being not quite 81cm long. Must have a very thick spine at that weight. Laughing Out Loud

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Michael G.





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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:


Awesome sword apart form the fact it apparently weighs 13.49 kgs. It would certainly stun you, if only your attacker could swing it with some level of accuracy.

I also notice the blade is quite short for an XVIIIc, being not quite 81cm long. Must have a very thick spine at that weight. Laughing Out Loud


It's made of pure neutronium. I saw another sword on their site with a listed weight of over 13 kgs. I'm guessing someone messed up their decimal points: "There are 100 grams in a kilogram...right?"
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter's 'Master's of Fire' piece is just pure perfection....
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 4:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
And it's thought to be late 15th c? I thought all of the Alexandria swords were earlier than that....


Hi Sean,

Late 14th century. I included the museum plaque.

Cheers,

J

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 5:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Hi Sean,

Not sure what you mean exactly by an "horizontally recurved, ribbon-like cross" but there is a beautifull type XVIIIc at the Royal Armouries in leeds that is very similar to the one Peter Johnson made. Notice the sandwitch grip, similar to the ones found on many messers, but very unusual on a bastard sword like this one.


A number of the Alexandria swords have these slapped-on looking sandwich grips, I believe.

Happy

ChadA

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Nat Lamb




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not enough XVIIc blades around, so I heartily aprove of this project (not that I didn't aprove of others btw, they have all been very cool, but this one looks like it will be very very cool)
Someone wanna post a linkt to the Masters of fire XVIIIc blade?
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
A number of the Alexandria swords have these slapped-on looking sandwich grips, I believe.


Hi Chad,

I'd love to get more information about this matter. Can you quote any sources?

Cheers,

J
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Hi Chad,

I'd love to get more information about this matter. Can you quote any sources?

Cheers,

J


There are a few journal articles about the Alexandria swords, and some can be seen in auction catalogues and other publications on arms and armour.

I don't have time right now to type up a longer list, though. Worried

Happy

ChadA

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
And it's thought to be late 15th c? I thought all of the Alexandria swords were earlier than that....


Hi Sean,

Late 14th century. I included the museum plaque.

Cheers,

J



Ah, yes--I overlooked the "I" in "XIV" in your original post. Too early for me, as I feared. Those in my period of interest (ca. 1500) might be more likely to have the recurved cross.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are Peter's (known) XVIIIc examples. See the threads below for details:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=xviiic

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13123



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I cry tears of joy everytime I see the Master's of Fire sword. That is my favorite sword of all time. Happy

Good luck with the project, Sean. I am certian you will do quite well as you always do!

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Paul Watson




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
I cry tears of joy everytime I see the Master's of Fire sword. That is my favorite sword of all time. Happy

Good luck with the project, Sean. I am certian you will do quite well as you always do!


There are more than a few of us in that boat.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Oct, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd say this is fairly typical, although the blade isn't seen:



Kreuzigung Christi

Dieses Bild: 003748

Kunstwerk: Temperamalerei-Holz ; Einrichtung sakral ; Flügelaltar ; Tirol(?) ; Mt:27:033-036 , Mk:15:022-041 , Lk:23:033-049 , Jo:19:016-030
Dokumentation: 1490 ; 1500 ; Sand in Taufers ; Italien ; Südtirol ; Filialkirche St. Walburg
Anmerkungen: Sand in Taufers, St. Walburg ; Weingartner Josef: Die Kunstdenkmäler Südtirols, Bd. I Bozen, Innsbruck 1973, S. 377


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Sat 03 Oct, 2009 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
And it's thought to be late 15th c? I thought all of the Alexandria swords were earlier than that....


Hi Sean,

Late 14th century. I included the museum plaque.

Cheers,

J




Julien, do you know the object / museum catalogue number for that sword? IX. ??? or ?

I had a quick look at the catalogue pages on the Royal Armouries website and couldn't find it.

Thanks.
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