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Rick M.




Location: maryland, usa
Joined: 29 Sep 2008

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: False edge         Reply with quote

I was showing a friend my A & A rondel dagger which has a false edge about 1 1/2 inches long. He asked the purpose of the false edge and I had to admit I wasn't really sure. So what is it's purpose?

Thanks,
Rick
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Justin King
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Location: flagstaff,arizona
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Presumably it makes the tip double-edged which (presumably) either aids in penetrating during a stab or allows a back-swinging cut. Personally I don't find either reason to be very compelling, they are usually not brought to a fully sharpened edge (at least on modern pieces), they usually have a relatively oblique edge angle, and they effectively reduce the rigidity and strength of the tip area in many applications.
They are, however, present on many historical blades. For purposes of reproductions we can just say that it's there because it was there on the original. Beyond that, my feeling is that they are mostly aesthetic. If sharpened properly they may aid somewhat in penetrating clothing or a textile defense.
If anyone has any further info on this I would love to hear it too.
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M. Oroszlany




Location: Czech Republic / Slovakia / Hungary
Joined: 12 Jan 2009

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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure this is true for all weapons, but the false edge on hungarian sabres was supposedly used to do damage to the opponents sword-hand / fingers while recovering the sabre from a bind.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps it serves a utility purpose, much like similar edges on military-like knives?

M.

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David E. Farrell




Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: 25 Jun 2007

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009 4:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

it may be worth shooting Craig Johnson a PM on this forum - he's the guy who likely designed that particular piece, and could probably give you a full page of explanation.

From what I know of rondel daggers, relatively few had a sort of 'false edge' or 'clipped point' like the A&A piece. It would make the point more acute, which would likely aid in penetration, but it really isn't necessary (I have one with no clipped back edge and it penetrates just fine). Rondels were not cutting weapons, they were much more like icepicks or seafood forks (and some even are shaped more like ice-picks and most were likely 'dull' by most knife standards). Thus, unlike a sword, the false edge was unlikely intended as another cutting surface (the A&A piece has a rather small clipped back edge).

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Craig Johnson
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Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jul, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Points and things         Reply with quote

Hello Guys

The comments so far have covered the concept pretty well. The clipped point or false edged point can be seen on many different knives through out history some are probably more decorative than others but the main reason one will usually see them is for a point that will penetrate and cut in both directions as this happens or at least reduce the resistance to penetration a bit as the blade thickens in cross section. The actual reduction in resistance is probably minimal but you will not have the back edge of the knife pushing against the target. This would not be much on a soft target but once one starts adding layers of cloth and some of the padded type armors it might help more.

The detail is not seen on a great deal of rondels but it does occur on some as well as many of the heavier style knives one sees from the middle ages on.

Best
Craig
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Rick M.




Location: maryland, usa
Joined: 29 Sep 2008

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jul, 2009 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many thanks, Craig and all.

Rick
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