Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > What is the difference between the true and false edge? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
Joined: 06 Jan 2008

Posts: 487

PostPosted: Wed 17 Jun, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: What is the difference between the true and false edge?         Reply with quote

And why do sources deferentiate between them.
E Pluribus Unum
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
Joined: 02 Sep 2008

Posts: 239

PostPosted: Wed 17 Jun, 2009 11:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are speaking about replicas of arms, the "false edge" is a particular processing of the edge of a weapon to look like a real, dangerous edge, but be completely safe (approx bigger than 3mm). Obliviously a "real edge" is when a weapon is manufactured with a normal edge, even if not razor sharp.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 12:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele A. Pini wrote:
If you are speaking about replicas of arms, the "false edge" is a particular processing of the edge of a weapon to look like a real, dangerous edge, but be completely safe (approx bigger than 3mm). Obliviously a "real edge" is when a weapon is manufactured with a normal edge, even if not razor sharp.


No, that's not it. False and true edges have nothing to do with sharpness. It is based on the orientation of the blade when wielded.

Read our article on the German Longsword. That discusses it.


.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Both of you are correct. Gabriele was speaking in terms of replicas; I have seen the term "false edged" used for Kit Rae swords before, and they are much like he describes.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 1:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Both of you are correct. Gabriele was speaking in terms of replicas; I have seen the term "false edged" used for Kit Rae swords before, and they are much like he describes.


Kit Rae swords are not a good resource for good information regarding real swords or real sword terminology. Happy

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andrew Maxwell




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 03 May 2009

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 2:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Nathan said.

With a simple hilt, if you are holding a sword in the "hammer" grip, the true edge is the edge facing your knuckles, the false edge faces your wrist (and if no-one is holding the sword it has neither). This important for some cuts- eg when "falling under the sword" in the MS I:33 system; if you bind with the true edge your options are limited, while if you bind with the false edge you can immediately follow it with a wrist cut to your opponent's head.

On the other hand, for some single edged swords (such as falchions) the tip of the back of the sword may be sharpened to aid thrusting, and referred to as the false edge; also complex hilted swords such as schiavona have an obvious true and false edge because they can only be held from one side of the hilt.
View user's profile Send private message
JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In Fiore, the true edge faces the same way as your knuckles and is your primary cutting edge. The false edge is the back edge of the sword. As Nathan mentioned, its merely an alignment issue - not an actual physical property of the sword.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
View user's profile Send private message
A.A. Boskaljon




Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Joined: 08 Apr 2008

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

long edge is for long strikes, the short for shorter strikes Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andrew Maxwell wrote:
With a simple hilt, if you are holding a sword in the "hammer" grip, the true edge is the edge facing your knuckles, the false edge faces your wrist (and if no-one is holding the sword it has neither).

Most swords with complex hilts have a 'natural' true edge, as the hilt is not symetrical but rather fitted to the hand. The true edge would be that on the side of the knucklebow, for example.

However you can hold these in ways that make the true edge behave a bit as a false edge and vis-versa Happy

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Justin King
Industry Professional



Location: flagstaff,arizona
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 551

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The term "false edge" is also sometimes specifically applied to a (usually) short, beveled section of back edge, on a blade that is otherwise single-edged. These are also sometimes known as a swedge. This use of the term is more of a modern connotation, I believe, but does cross over into historical pieces which often have this feature. In some contexts this could cause some confusion/misunderstandings.
View user's profile Send private message
Douglas S





Joined: 18 Feb 2004

Posts: 177

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:

Kit Rae swords are not a good resource for good information regarding real swords or real sword terminology. Happy

LOL Razz
View user's profile Send private message
Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Justin King wrote:
This use of the term is more of a modern connotation, I believe, but does cross over into historical pieces which often have this feature. In some contexts this could cause some confusion/misunderstandings.

If by "this term" you mean the term "false edge", it was used historically in Italian swordsmanship back to the 1400s (or perhaps before, but that is the first written reference that I know of).

I've never heard the term "swedge" before. You learn something new every day. Wink

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello All,

True & False edge is the terminology used in the 18th century British sword manuals I work from to explain edge alignment.

Long and short edge is the terminology used in the 14th & 15th century German sword manuals I work from to explain edge alignment.

True & Long both line up with the knuckles, false & short line up with the web between the thumb and first finger.

Since I work with the Scottish Baskethilted broadsword (correct name in this case) and the longsword, both weapons have edges that run the same length on both sides of the blade. If not fencable blunts, but sharps, the sharpen edges would be the same length on either side of the blade.

On the British backsword and German messer, True & False edge/ Long and short edge is still used to explain edge alignment, but in these swords each has a blunt false/ short edge for most of the length of the blade with only a short section sharped back from the tip.

While the "odd" naming of the edges might confuse a sword collector, it's very helpful to a historic fencer to explain how a cut or defense with the sword should be delivered when working from period text.

Cheers,


David Teague

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
View user's profile Send private message
G Ezell
Industry Professional



Location: North Alabama
Joined: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 235

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Justin King wrote:
The term "false edge" is also sometimes specifically applied to a (usually) short, beveled section of back edge, on a blade that is otherwise single-edged. These are also sometimes known as a swedge. This use of the term is more of a modern connotation, I believe, but does cross over into historical pieces which often have this feature. In some contexts this could cause some confusion/misunderstandings.

This is also my understanding of it, and the terminology used by most blade makers, the typical Bowie knife being a good example of a blade with a false edge.
I've always wondered when the false edge became a feature on European blades, and what influenced the design.

" I have found that it is very often the case that if you state some absolute rule of history, there will be an example, however extremely unusual, to break it."
Gabriel Lebec

https://www.facebook.com/relicforge
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

G Ezell wrote:
Justin King wrote:
The term "false edge" is also sometimes specifically applied to a (usually) short, beveled section of back edge, on a blade that is otherwise single-edged. These are also sometimes known as a swedge. This use of the term is more of a modern connotation, I believe, but does cross over into historical pieces which often have this feature. In some contexts this could cause some confusion/misunderstandings.

This is also my understanding of it, and the terminology used by most blade makers, the typical Bowie knife being a good example of a blade with a false edge.
I've always wondered when the false edge became a feature on European blades, and what influenced the design.

The false edge is just the edge that is serving as the "back edge" of the blade. On an asymmetric blade, it will be different than the true edge, but on some swords, such as many longswords, the false edge is determined merely by the manner in which the hold the sword--that is, it is the edge facing towards you. Thus, any sword that has two edges has a false edge.

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
M. Eversberg II wrote:
Both of you are correct. Gabriele was speaking in terms of replicas; I have seen the term "false edged" used for Kit Rae swords before, and they are much like he describes.


Kit Rae swords are not a good resource for good information regarding real swords or real sword terminology. Happy


Wasn't what I was implying.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Michael Curl




Location: Northern California, US
Joined: 06 Jan 2008

Posts: 487

PostPosted: Thu 18 Jun, 2009 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, I thought that the true edge (i'm speaking of longswords only) was somehow different than the false edge. Thank you all very much.

Second question, though kind of off topic, do any of you know of any good heater or roundshield techniques? I can only find the hammaborg group (in germany) that has any videos on how to use a roundshield.

E Pluribus Unum
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check out SPADA I: http://revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=80

Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner break down information from Talhoffer's dueling shield and a few other sources (Capo Fero if I recall correctly) to reconstruct some sword and shield techniques, particularly as they regard center grip shields.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 860

PostPosted: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
Check out SPADA I: http://revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=80

Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner break down information from Talhoffer's dueling shield and a few other sources (Capo Fero if I recall correctly) to reconstruct some sword and shield techniques, particularly as they regard center grip shields.


SPADA II also has an article that updates the first. But I think that the work of Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner has been heavily criticized by other groups...

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steven Reich




Location: Arlington, VA
Joined: 28 Oct 2003

Posts: 237

PostPosted: Fri 19 Jun, 2009 4:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Curl wrote:
Ok, I thought that the true edge (i'm speaking of longswords only) was somehow different than the false edge. Thank you all very much.

Second question, though kind of off topic, do any of you know of any good heater or roundshield techniques? I can only find the hammaborg group (in germany) that has any videos on how to use a roundshield.

It depends upon which "roundshield" you mean. The Bolognese have techniques for the Rotella:


I have extracted all of the techniques from the various Bolognese treatises (Manciolino, Marozzo, and The Anonymous) into a pdf available here:The Actions for Sword and Rotella. However, understanding this document requires at least a basic understanding of Bolognese swordsmanship (i.e. the fundamentals and the terminology).

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > What is the difference between the true and false edge?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum