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G. Ghazarian
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Need your help.         Reply with quote

I am gathering necessary material and getting ready to make a sword inspired by the sword of Count Leonhard von Goerz, the picture of which was posted by Nathan Robinson in another thread

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=162431#162431

I need your help in making sense of the rain guard on this particular sword. This does not seem to be made of leather and it strangely looks like an integral part of the cross guard and looks metallic. This rain guard does not seem to have any added thickness over the cross guard.

Any ideas?

Your help is very appreciated.

Thank you.

Gabriel



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ornate_swords01a_s.jpg


G. Ghazarian
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D. Austin
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Gabriel,

From this photo alone, I'd say you're probably right about it being an integral part of the cross guard. I'd guess that it was forged as part of the guard and perhaps not hollow like you'd expect a rainguard to be. It may well be solid, apart from the slot for the tang. It's not possible to tell from this angle alone. Perhaps someone else has pictures from another angle, or has seen this sword and can explain it. If not, I'd be betting on the "solid part of the guard" theory.

Good luck in your quest.

Darren.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 10:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could it be a separate piece of metal folded over and having the ecussion shape in there?


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closeup.jpg
Very rough comp to serve as a demo

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D. Austin
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun, 2009 11:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Could it be a separate piece of metal folded over and having the ecussion shape in there?


This is a distinct possibility. I love the alterations to the photo by the way. Could the part shown in your picture, just above the quillons, be a part of the rainguard? Perhaps the cross is straight and the flaps of the rainguard incorporate a kind of flange which rises up over the grip? I'd be quite interested to see if anyone has pictures from a better angle.

I'm looking forward to seeing your efforts on this piece Gabriel. I know you have the attention to detail to do a fine job.

Darren.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

D. Austin wrote:
Could the part shown in your picture, just above the quillons, be a part of the rainguard? Perhaps the cross is straight and the flaps of the rainguard incorporate a kind of flange which rises up over the grip? .


That's what I see.

-Sean

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G. Ghazarian
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you guys, all of you. I think we are all on the same wavelength.

I see that we all believe, unless proven otherwise, this is definitely a metallic rain guard, either forged solid with the cross guard or made separately and fitted perfectly over it. I'm thinking it can't be a sheet metal - it will be bent out of shape in no time, but made of solid metal of reasonable thickness - 1/16" min or much more. If forged integral with the cross guard, can be solid as Darren suggested, or even slotted underneath, wide enough to accomodate a scabbard.

I think the cutler was having a lot of fun making this sword. What a way of making a rain guard and come to think of it, well worth making it !!

Nathan, I appreciate your taking the time to modify the picture to make your point. It definitely convinced me not to leave out the rain guard. The sword is not the same without it.

I still wish there were more pictures, or a quarter view perhaps, or somebody who has actually seen it, chimes in.

It appears I picked a hell of a challenging sword to make!

Thanks again.

Gabriel

G. Ghazarian
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G. Ghazarian
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jun, 2009 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wish there were more ideas, speculations, info...

Oh well....

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jun, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am convinced the suggestion that the rain guard is made in one with the guard is correct. This is something you can see on some swords belonging to the very end of the 15th C and possibly the first few years of the 16th C. (perhaps outside this time period, although I have not seen any such examples).
I do not think you need any further speculations. They will only lead astray.

The rain guard is forged to shape internally with a shaped drift, at the same time as the slot for the tang and blade is made. Outside is is somewhat forged to shape but also an extensive use of file work and chiseling has been invested.
No mystery, just skillful work.
Alternatively, the rain guard and guard can have been forged welded together of separate parts, of course. If this was well done, there is very little trace to tell by visual inspection. It will look like one solid piece.

There is a hunting sword in Wienna with just this type of integral steel rain guard dated to 1495 and also an estoc, dated to around 1500.
In Armi Bianche Italiane, there is published a sword with S-curving guards (a kind of Italian Katzbalger) also with integral steel rain guard, dated to the same time period.
In Solingen there is at least one sword with this kind of guard, that I remember seeing in the store room.
They occur at times, all over the place, but seem isolated to a narrow time period. (As far as I can tell)

Compare this style of rain guard to the slightly later fabricated metal rain guards found on swords from the second and third quarter of the 16th C, for example the rapier of Gustav Wasa.

Good luck with your project!
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G. Ghazarian
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Location: Florida USA
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jun, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Peter.

I appreciate your convincing information on the rain guard being one with the cross guard that we were discussing.

Gabriel

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