Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > 16th Century Austrian Forge/Tools/Machinery Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject: 16th Century Austrian Forge/Tools/Machinery         Reply with quote

I just found these amazing (to me) 16th c. Austrian illustrations. Here's the info:

Kunstwerk: Buchmalerei-Papier ; Illustrationszyklus Naturwissenschaft ; Miniatur ; Tirol
Dokumentation: 1556 ; 1556 ; Innsbruck ; Österreich ; Tirol ; Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum ; Cod. Dipl. 856 ; fol. 156r
Anmerkungen: Schwazer Bergbuch (Ludwig Lässl, Jörg Klober)



 Attachment: 122.42 KB
3000143.jpg


 Attachment: 127.48 KB
3000144.jpg


 Attachment: 111.98 KB
3000151.jpg


 Attachment: 118.08 KB
3000154.jpg


 Attachment: 112.85 KB
3000155.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,279

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: Excellent         Reply with quote

Great find Sean

Those are excellent. There are some great details and images there.

Thank you
Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is that pretty much your setup, Craig? Big Grin

The thing that most fascinates me about these is the degree of mechanization and details of the water hammer technology. The only thing that puzzles me is that I don't see how they would disengage a hammer from the cog when not in use. Maybe they didn't, just letting them run, though that would seem to create undo wear on the tools. Maybe there's some sort of clutch mechanism on the wheel, or a way to redirect the flow of water.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jo Thomas




Location: Doncaster, England
Joined: 20 Apr 2009

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would guess (based on the remains of water and wind mills I've walked past) that the hammer is on some kind of pivot. Or there is an intermediary step which isn't illustrated which is on a pivot / capable of being moved out of alignment.
Jo Thomas
http://www.journeymouse.net/
Updated weekly
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, yeah, a simple pivot makes sense. I'll throw up one of these on Turkey Creek http://www.freshwaterlandtrust.org/turkey-creek.html some weekend and see if I can figure it out. :lol
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:20 am; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jo Thomas




Location: Doncaster, England
Joined: 20 Apr 2009

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The only problem I can come up with on the whole "simple pivot" idea is that those hammers must be very heavy. Otherwise there wouldn't be a water wheel on the other end Big Grin So even movement around a pivot is going to be difficult. I now have an urge to go build a life-size model to try and work out the solution... Gah!
Jo Thomas
http://www.journeymouse.net/
Updated weekly
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jo Thomas wrote:
The only problem I can come up with on the whole "simple pivot" idea is that those hammers must be very heavy. Otherwise there wouldn't be a water wheel on the other end Big Grin So even movement around a pivot is going to be difficult. I now have an urge to go build a life-size model to try and work out the solution... Gah!


I guess a sluice gate is the simplest solution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluice

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,279

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Power Hammers         Reply with quote

All you need is something to brace the hammer up and its free of the cog. It could be under the hammer face or even a bar near the pivot of the hammer arm or a hook over the end near the cog. I have seen all used in varying configurations.

Best
Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,886

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Power Hammers         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
All you need is something to brace the hammer up and its free of the cog. It could be under the hammer face or even a bar near the pivot of the hammer arm or a hook over the end near the cog. I have seen all used in varying configurations.

Best
Craig


So obvious...now that you've said it. Big Grin

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,279

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Here is a nice example         Reply with quote

Here is a nice example of the real thing




From an interesting site WEALDEN IRON RESEARCH GROUP

Best
Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
D. Austin
Industry Professional



Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 20 Sep 2007

Posts: 208

PostPosted: Thu 30 Apr, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A few days ago I stumbled upon this link which shows a reproduction of a medieval blacksmith's workshop. According to the text, the sluice is controlled by a lever inside the shop.

Thanks for these images Sean, I'm particularly interested in the low anvils and forging whilst seated. Personally, I can't be bothered sitting down to forge as I'll only have to stand up 20 seconds later to take another heat on the steel. I do most of my armouring seated but that's only when working cold. Most fascinating.

There seems to be a great deal of similarity to modern smithys. The fire rakes are basically the same and there are what appear to be spring fullers hanging on the wall in the first picture.

My two biggest questions are, how do the water driven bellows work in the last picture, and what are they working on in the fourth picture? They appear to me to be cracking walnuts (note the bowls on the floor). Razz

That last picture you posted Craig is great. I particularly like the slots for interchangeable tools on the anvil and hammer.
View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2009 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Is that pretty much your setup, Craig? Big Grin

The thing that most fascinates me about these is the degree of mechanization and details of the water hammer technology. The only thing that puzzles me is that I don't see how they would disengage a hammer from the cog when not in use. Maybe they didn't, just letting them run, though that would seem to create undo wear on the tools. Maybe there's some sort of clutch mechanism on the wheel, or a way to redirect the flow of water.


I have worked and still go working into such water hamemr forges.

Mechanism is not complex, there is no disengaging, simply a lever stops water falling or disegnages the waterwheel from the machine.

I almost got crushed last saturday when i tried to restart one by tampering with a non perfectly registered mechanism, ahem.

I have plenty of pics somewhere. the forges i was were built in the XV century and in 1572, respectively, also i worked in anotehr from the XVII. Exactly equal in principle and mechanism.
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,279

PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2009 7:44 am    Post subject: Cool         Reply with quote

Hi Bruno

Would love to see some of the pics if you are able.

Best
Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Daniel Prendergast




Location: London
Joined: 19 Sep 2006

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri 01 May, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This has sort of been said already, but to elaborate; There is a forked wooden crutch that goes under the neck of the tilthammer when it is un its upstroke that was used in some mills to disengage the hammer. You obviously need to push the head up a little to fully disengage it, but most of the weight is held on the pivot anyway.
View user's profile Send private message
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Sun 03 May, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A good gallery with two magli in working order from the province of Brescia. The old man with a shovel is a 92 year old maister (master smith), Severino Zola, who has been working there from 1930 to 1980 making spades, shovels, pickaxes and other agricultural tools. The forge is ancient, some part are clearly medieval, the anvil with a single cone bears a striking resemblance to single cone early anvils. He worked using stamping tools quite similar to that shown on old woodcuts. Grindstone is from our area. There was also a special maglio for finishing items, and he used to forge weld handles to shovels using a local powder made out of special flint (saless). The smaller maglio is in Brescia and it is placed in the neighbourood that produced most of the brescian swords. The grindstones I shot that are covered with a green patina are probably from an ancient period, now they are sued to support a newer maglio channel. Likely they come from the moladore, wooden scaffoldings used in the sword process that are recorded in the 1610 census. I will be working as a volunteer in the smaller maglio from the next season. The date on the maglio's stone shoulders read 187* but I have seen far older ones (at least 1525 in another forge). Maister Zola reported that they knew that in ancient times such shoulders were made out of wood as theya are called soche, from soc, stump (cfr the french socle).


http://www.corporazione-fabbri.org/galleria-maglio/images.html

Pics are heavy and unedited, pls use for personal, non profit use only. I'm planning an in depth book on the brescian process so they will likely be included.


[/i]
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,279

PostPosted: Mon 04 May, 2009 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
A good gallery with two magli in working order from the province of Brescia. The old man with a shovel is a 92 year old maister (master smith), Severino Zola, who has been working there from 1930 to 1980 making spades, shovels, pickaxes and other agricultural tools. The forge is ancient, some part are clearly medieval, the anvil with a single cone bears a striking resemblance to single cone early anvils. He worked using stamping tools quite similar to that shown on old woodcuts. Grindstone is from our area. There was also a special maglio for finishing items, and he used to forge weld handles to shovels using a local powder made out of special flint (saless). The smaller maglio is in Brescia and it is placed in the neighbourood that produced most of the brescian swords. The grindstones I shot that are covered with a green patina are probably from an ancient period, now they are sued to support a newer maglio channel. Likely they come from the moladore, wooden scaffoldings used in the sword process that are recorded in the 1610 census. I will be working as a volunteer in the smaller maglio from the next season. The date on the maglio's stone shoulders read 187* but I have seen far older ones (at least 1525 in another forge). Maister Zola reported that they knew that in ancient times such shoulders were made out of wood as theya are called soche, from soc, stump (cfr the french socle).


http://www.corporazione-fabbri.org/galleria-maglio/images.html

Pics are heavy and unedited, pls use for personal, non profit use only. I'm planning an in depth book on the brescian process so they will likely be included.
[/i]


Incredible Bruno, great pictures. I have not made it through all but have seen some great things. I look forward to your book in the future. These are very interesting and have great details.

Couple of years ago I saw a video of traditional Brescian bucket makers and was very impressed. This looks like the type of experience where you will learn a lot.

Thank you
Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bruno Giordan





Joined: 28 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Mon 04 May, 2009 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
Bruno Giordan wrote:
A good gallery with two magli in working order from the province of Brescia. The old man with a shovel is a 92 year old maister (master smith), Severino Zola, who has been working there from 1930 to 1980 making spades, shovels, pickaxes and other agricultural tools. The forge is ancient, some part are clearly medieval, the anvil with a single cone bears a striking resemblance to single cone early anvils. He worked using stamping tools quite similar to that shown on old woodcuts. Grindstone is from our area. There was also a special maglio for finishing items, and he used to forge weld handles to shovels using a local powder made out of special flint (saless). The smaller maglio is in Brescia and it is placed in the neighbourood that produced most of the brescian swords. The grindstones I shot that are covered with a green patina are probably from an ancient period, now they are sued to support a newer maglio channel. Likely they come from the moladore, wooden scaffoldings used in the sword process that are recorded in the 1610 census. I will be working as a volunteer in the smaller maglio from the next season. The date on the maglio's stone shoulders read 187* but I have seen far older ones (at least 1525 in another forge). Maister Zola reported that they knew that in ancient times such shoulders were made out of wood as theya are called soche, from soc, stump (cfr the french socle).


http://www.corporazione-fabbri.org/galleria-maglio/images.html

Pics are heavy and unedited, pls use for personal, non profit use only. I'm planning an in depth book on the brescian process so they will likely be included.
[/i]


Incredible Bruno, great pictures. I have not made it through all but have seen some great things. I look forward to your book in the future. These are very interesting and have great details.

Couple of years ago I saw a video of traditional Brescian bucket makers and was very impressed. This looks like the type of experience where you will learn a lot.

Thank you
Craig


Youa re welcome, I had a great time myself listening to that old master.

He told me he started working at 11 as lever operator in 1930 (the boy who acted as maglio starter/stopper, and ceased in 1980. His work routine was: wake up at 2 am, work until 8, a quarter hour pause for a brief lunch1, then back to work until midday. Afrer a couple hours rest, back to finishing work.

Such people could throw out a hundred finished pieces a day or more.

Unlike others who turned undustrialists in the fifties by establishing modern style steel mills he continued to work the traditional way, so that today he lives out of a meager pension.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > 16th Century Austrian Forge/Tools/Machinery
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum