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Helge B.





Joined: 06 Mar 2008

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: Unbelievable cutting tests.         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_gcPGI-ZMI&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyO46RQhYkQ

Unbelievable accuracy!
Watching this one almost could believe all these katana/samurai myths...well, not really.
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Lukasz Papaj




Location: Malbork, Poland
Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr, 2009 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, that was nice, as far as accuracy goes (though one wonder how many trial shots there were with that peas Happy )

On the other hand, the "iron cutting" was kinda laughable, I mean, the test drill for pre-WWII Wz.34 Sabre was to cut 5mm diameter rebar and pierce 2mm steel plate (free drop from 2 meters) without damaging the blade ... so the "magikal" katana should be able to "do" a centimeter one Wink I was expecting to see little more than 0.4 mm plate being cut, really.

Nevertheless the control over the sword Mr.Machii posses seems really superb to me.
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Adam S.





Joined: 01 Sep 2006

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The ten year old little boy that used to kill Demons in the back yard with a bokken that still lives in the back of my head just cried with glee! Big Grin

My inner child thanks you for that.
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Helge B.





Joined: 06 Mar 2008

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr, 2009 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well...I was not saying that the steel cutting tests proves the katana myths (cutting plate armour, gun barrels, tanks etc.).

I found it amazing though that he was able to cut the steel sheet so cleanly without any visible deformation of it.

The trick with the soft air pellet was the most fascinating one IMHO. Especially as he started with a sheathed sword.
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Helge B.





Joined: 06 Mar 2008

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr, 2009 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to add one more observation about the iron tube cutting test.

In the slowmotion one can see that he cut it with a slicing motion and not just by simply hacking onto it. That amount of control is really a miracle to me.
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Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 466

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow....
I guess the scene in Wheel of Time where Lan the Warder spins and chops a flying grasshopper in half isn't so far-fetched.

Concerning his slicing motion, it interested me to see that it was forward. I would expect to see backward "pulling" slashing where you extend and then pull back so the sword is immediately ready for another swing. It seems like the forward push without going through the target would be harder to recover from.

Anybody else enjoy the translation as well? I especially liked
Quote:
It smoothly cuts it like cutting the thing that isn't iron.


Dang, now I want to try the sheet-metal cutting. Big Grin Looked like the easiest of the techniques. I know I can't pull off any of the others.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2009 1:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This was discussed on another thread, I believe.

The level of control and precision he has is quite remarkable. It isn't so much based on actual martial technique (he does a number of things that are not quite correct from a fighting point of view, including gripping the sword wrong), but from a athletic point of view he is very skilled.

As for the pipe, though: I'm 100% certain that isn't an iron pipe, even though that's what they say it is. If it were, it'd be galvanized to prevent it from rusting (as most metal pipes deal with water), and you can clearly see it isn't. In fact, I'm positive its nothing more than a standard, thin-walled aluminum pipe. Now, it still requires a good heat treatment to cut it in half without damage to the sword, but its not quite as sensational as they make it out to be. Further, it doesn't really require as much skill as it does a tough blade (and you'll note how he has a completely different sword for this task... the earlier sword is most likely one of the extra thin blades used for stunt-cutting showmanship, whereas this later sword is most likely a much thicker sword to prevent it from breaking). The earlier stunts he did are far more impressive when you actually think about what's required.

Then there's the plate... which I'm also fairly certain is aluminum, not steel. It looks like the same stuff they put on the siding of houses, and if so, that one's not impressive at all to cut through. I can do that with a $10 machete. Happy

Overall, its still entertaining to watch.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:


As for the pipe, though: I'm 100% certain that isn't an iron pipe, even though that's what they say it is. If it were, it'd be galvanized to prevent it from rusting (as most metal pipes deal with water), and you can clearly see it isn't. In fact,.


I guessed it to be tubing based on the appearance of thin wall thickness. Possibly it was stainless material. If it were ungalvanized steel, I would expect to see a blue-black film of mil scale on it. I have a variety of blade steel around me now, and none of it looks that bright after a sitting for few weeks without polishing or protective oil coating. That said, it is still cool to see something more substantial than tatami being cut.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Patrick De Block




Location: Belgium
Joined: 10 Aug 2008

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill, could you please explain what you mean, I didn't see it. What do I have to look for?

...'he does a number of things that are not quite correct from a fighting point of view, including gripping the sword wrong'...

Thank you.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick De Block wrote:
Bill, could you please explain what you mean, I didn't see it. What do I have to look for?

...'he does a number of things that are not quite correct from a fighting point of view, including gripping the sword wrong'...

Thank you.


Well, I don't want to be too critical of it, because like I said, its very impressive. But for example, he grips the sword with his hands together like it is a baseball bat to chop at the pipe, which is wrong in any form of Japanese martial arts that I'm aware of. Also, in almost all of his cuts he comes into the range of his target, winds up to telegraph his intent, and then makes his cut. Had he faced a real opponent, his opponent would have probably hit him before the cut even started. He does a number of cuts that finish with him wide open, which would have been detrimental had he lived a few hundred years ago and used this art to save his life. After all, he may have missed the first attack, or perhaps he would have been facing more than one opponent, in which case finishing in such an open stance would have been dangerous. And making the multiple cuts on the free standing tatami mat on the floor, while impressive, requires him to move in ways that you would never use in real combat.

But again, I want to stress that this doesn't diminish the fact that these are very impressive feats of physical ability. I certainly can't cut as well as he can, nor can anyone else I know in the martial arts world. And the speed and precision he uses to cut the tennis ball and BB pellet are amazing.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
But for example, he grips the sword with his hands together like it is a baseball bat to chop at the pipe, which is wrong in any form of Japanese martial arts that I'm aware of.

I think it might be a specific technique to cut at very resistant, non-giving objects. If you look at the pictures here you can see Obata sensei doing arguably much the same. Although the sword here had no proper grip, that goes on to show that the hand position is not necessarily critical in such situations.

Stepping into range, big wind ups, laying wide open at the end, are seen in many tameshigiri videos, and to be honest I've stopped trying to discriminate legitimate and illegitimate JSA with these criteria... For example these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFp45RqO7GQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9txp3AAroI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_v92GFAIlY (see the hand close together again here, btw)

The bottom line in my opinion is that we should stop trying to see an accurate rendition of fighting moves in test cutting. Test cuts show that one knows how to cut, which is certainly a good skill to have, but in a fight the moves would be adapted according to what the adversary is doing and what opportunity it gives. Tatami mats and mushrooms don't move around, they don't create openings, they don't abandon their cover to attack us... So it's quite easy to spot openings on the one doing the cutting, but whether or not the adversary would be able to take advantage of them remains to be seen.

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Patrick De Block




Location: Belgium
Joined: 10 Aug 2008

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with you, I just wanted to know what you meant exactly.

It's showbusiness and if you want the audience to participate you have to take aim several times so they can shiver and wonder: 'Will he be able ...?'

Considering the grip, it is used in Seitei Iai from the Kendo Renmei. As you know, if you keep your hands together to cut someting in two halves, you lose point control but the powertransfer is easier since your hands are not spaced. He's not cutting with the monuchi either, he's way behind it. In tameshigiri-videos the cut is mostly done just behind the monuchi and no one seems to care although it is always emphasized: you have to cut with the monuchi. And he is indeed using a sword for the pipe-cutting, not a whistler. A whistler is also better for audience-participation.
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