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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: A Knights' supply of water         Reply with quote

I have done some searching and did not come up with too much. Though I was wondering how knights would have carried a personal supply of water with them while waiting to attack an enemy or while traveling to the battlefield.

The reason I ask is that I would like to acquire something of the sort. I sweat alot in full gear and need to keep a supply of water with me to replenish myself and I really dislike having a plastic bottle of water in my hands or on my belt while armoured.

What are some soulutions you all have found for this? Is there any suppliers to buy from? And/or Would a plain pouch with a wooden cork be authentic enough?

Thanks for the help

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Chris Arrington





Joined: 06 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are several guys over on armourarchive.org in the classifieds section that make and sell some attractive leather water bottles on occaison.

Now how historical they are, I don't know. But they are certainly much better than the old plastic water jug. Happy
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They may have used water skins, something like:

http://dogonlanguages.org/photos/040_02_large...pew_JH.JPG

or


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Reinier van Noort





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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't help it. I have to ask. Is that the front or the back they drink from? Eek!
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Herbert Schmidt




Location: Austria / Europe
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 7:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The front...

And usually I guess that a knight had at least some sort of servant with him who was responsible for this. Also I don't think that he had a water supply on his body. He would go back to camp get some drink or use any nearby water (well, stream, or supply from villagers or peasants).

Herbert

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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll check in with more info later, but from the top of my head leather waterbottles was found on the Mary Rose and I have seen depictions of them on 15th centur artwork (hunting scenes)

As a previous poster mentioned, water was most probably not carried on the person, but with the baggage/servant/pack-animal. For training or battle, do everyone a favor and bring a 90l barrel and a ladle. Make shure to brand it "ye olde Gaatorayde.. Wink

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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: A Knights' supply of water         Reply with quote

Christopher VaughnStrever wrote:

What are some solutions you all have found for this? Is there any suppliers to buy from? And/or Would a plain pouch with a wooden cork be authentic enough?

Thanks for the help


If this solution is sufficiently historically accurate I can't say but it would be much better than a plastic water bottle or a modern canteen: http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=134

The larger water skin shown in another post seems like what would be carried by servants and maybe barrels of water might also be in use for larger supply needs of an army in the field.

In any case you still need some water on you for practical reasons ( To avoid heat stroke or dehydration ) and one of these at least don't scream " modern " and are " plausible " I think.

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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As promised earlier:


Mary Rose bottle. I really like this one and on my todo-list for this summer

In artwork:


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Steven H




Location: Boston
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bjorn Hagstrom wrote:

Mary Rose bottle. I really like this one and on my todo-list for this summer


Thanks for the image. Since it's on your to-do list: do know what the leather is sealed with? Would wax work?

Thanks,
Steven

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Michael B.
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I help make the ones, at times, that are for sale on the Mercenary's Tailor website. We seal the bottles with brewers pitch. Melt it, then pour it in, swish it around. The pitch leaves no taste in whatever you put in, water, soda, I've put hot coffee in one of mine. They also last for a long time, had mine for three years traveling all over the US and still have no problems with it. Based our design on the Mary Rose one.
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Michael Bergstrom
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thought wine and beer were preferred to water in all circumstances (when available). Assuming wine would always be available to high-status individuals, would they have drunk that even during the course of a battle? Given the potential for contaminated water, especially on campaign in a foreign land, wine and beer would seem the best fluid options for those who could afford them. I can imagine barrels of wine in the baggage train, tapped as needed and taken to the front by servants.
-Sean

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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven H wrote:
Bjorn Hagstrom wrote:

Mary Rose bottle. I really like this one and on my todo-list for this summer


Thanks for the image. Since it's on your to-do list: do know what the leather is sealed with? Would wax work?

Thanks,
Steven


Brewers pitch I have no experience of, I plan to use bees wax. Brewers pitch is probably better though. But I like to use wax, it is so useful to almost any medieval craft. Kind of like a medieval combination of duct-tape and WD-40 Happy

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Douglas S





Joined: 18 Feb 2004

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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 12:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, we have used a 50-50 mix of pitch and wax to good effect.

http://www.geocities.com/baldurstrand/bottle/waterbottle.html
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Chris Arrington





Joined: 06 Apr 2007

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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found a nice website of a renactor who describes how he made his step by step.

http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no2/Costrel.htm

He also mentions that Panther Primitives carry many for the Revolutionary\Civil War Renactors that are pretty close in design and style to medieval ones.
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I bought one at a ren. fair once that I could use for SCA and stuff where accuaracy was second to function. It was a hard plastic bottle shaped like the Mary Rose one and then covered in thin leather. In appearance it looked pretty Medieval, but it kept your water tasting pretty good. Im sure someone could find em online I think they cost like $30.
Z
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I thought wine and beer were preferred to water in all circumstances (when available). Assuming wine would always be available to high-status individuals, would they have drunk that even during the course of a battle? Given the potential for contaminated water, especially on campaign in a foreign land, wine and beer would seem the best fluid options for those who could afford them. I can imagine barrels of wine in the baggage train, tapped as needed and taken to the front by servants.


You know, I keep hearing that but drinking wine before/after combat seems like a death wish. Firstly, wine's got a large quantity of alcohol in it, and alcohol dehydrates you. Secondly, as you dehydrate your combat performance will go south quickly, so if it isn't the thirst that kills you, someone else will.

M.

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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Fri 27 Mar, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:

You know, I keep hearing that but drinking wine before/after combat seems like a death wish. Firstly, wine's got a large quantity of alcohol in it, and alcohol dehydrates you. Secondly, as you dehydrate your combat performance will go south quickly, so if it isn't the thirst that kills you, someone else will.

M.


The alcoholic content of wine and beer is probably higher today (and definitley more consistent) using specialised yeast-strains and modern production methods with temperature-control and scientific knowledge about the chemistry behind the process.

Also wine was diluted with water. Still is in some rural parts of europe where wine is still consumed daily.

And as for lowering your performance..assuming everybody including your opponent is heavy on the plonk, it all evens out.
Hey, maybe we could blame the whole "Horns of Hattin"-debacle on the unfairness of fighting a sober enemy? Razz

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Last edited by Bjorn Hagstrom on Sat 28 Mar, 2009 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 1:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We know that medieval wine was very different from today, more like must than today wine, with a very low grade of alcohol in it. It was paart of the transformation from roman's and greek's wine (which was very dense, like honey, and was therefore diluited with water) to modern wine.

Melitta Weiss Adamson in hers "Food in Medieval Times" (Greenwood, 2004) say that were used a large quantity of fruits juices (wine is no more than grape'ss juice fermented, as is cider) for keep the excess of production.

Also, I don't know if it was do in medieval times, but my great-aunt would prepare a mixture of wine, coffee, tea and other liquids for the workers in the field, to avoid dehydratation and drunkness. I know, naturally, that there wasn't coffee or tea in the first medieval age, but if some farmers of the Valtellina know that alcohol isn't the best diet to do a straight groove with the plow, probably the knight's would know too (or suffer from a terminal disease called "natural selection").
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