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David Rowe




Location: Fairfax, VA
Joined: 01 Aug 2004

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject: 15th century harness         Reply with quote

Hello everyone,


I have a few questions for those more knowledgeable than myself about 15th c. armor.

I am working on a 15th c. kit, and already have a few pieces (breastplate, gauntlets) and am working on acquiring some more pieces.

Specifically, is there anything glaringly wrong/unperiod with these choices?

Helm: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailshelmets/klobouk22.html

Arms: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/ruce53.html

Shoulders: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/ruce63.html

I've been using the illustrations in Paulus Kal as inspiration... but unfortunately, I am not super familiar with armor enought that I can necessarily catch anything that's glaringly wrong for the period. I also know that using the entire 15th c. as a reference encompasses many different styles and periods, but budget unfortunately constrains me to the point where I want to be as close as possible but am still willing to "fudge" things a bit if they are at least feasible. Happy

Thanks you, and any help/ feedback would be greatly appreciated! Happy
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello the arms are more or less first quarter to mid of the 14th cent. Although the attachment of the rondels looks a bit of.
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David Rowe




Location: Fairfax, VA
Joined: 01 Aug 2004

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:
Hello the arms are more or less, first quarter to mid of the 14th cent. Although the attachment of the rondels looks a bit of.



Oh, ok. I had posted those as I had thought they were similar to those seen here: http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00001840/image...p;seite=21 However, there are most likely subtleties I am missing. Happy Thanks!
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A.A. Boskaljon




Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Joined: 08 Apr 2008

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.bestarmour.com/Ruce%201%20a.jpg

That are more the kind of arms+shoulders you see on the image you posted.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 3:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, what makes the arms in David's link wrong for the 15th century? Is it the crease on the elbows?

I ask because I immediately thought they were 14th century at first until I saw the Kal image, which is mid-15th century.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Out of curiosity, what makes the arms in David's link wrong for the 15th century? Is it the crease on the elbows?

I ask because I immediately thought they were 14th century at first until I saw the Kal image, which is mid-15th century.


To my eye the main factors are:
- lack of articulation between the couters and the vambrace/rerebrace
- flared lips and central ridge on the couters
- extreme simplicity of the vambrace and rerebrace

On 15th century arms of this style I'd expect a fully enclosed vambrace, a mostly or fully enclosed rerebrace and for them both to be articulated to the couters. You do get floating couters in the 15th century but they're obviously much bigger than these ones, looking more like these: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/ruce33.html

I think these are likely to be a good match to the picture in the Kal book but they lack the obviously pointed elbow seen in the illustration linked above: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/ruce71.html

I vaguely think these would be a good fit too, but someone with more specific expertise than me would need to confirm that: http://www.bestarmour.com/detailsparts/ruce35.html

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, I see what you mean. I couldn't figure out what looked out of place until you said that. Thanks, Al!
Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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David Rowe




Location: Fairfax, VA
Joined: 01 Aug 2004

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks everyone... this is very helpful. Happy
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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Mar, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a very interesting helmet style you've picked out. The spiral design is very eye-catching.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Mar, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ed Toton wrote:
That's a very interesting helmet style you've picked out. The spiral design is very eye-catching.


Looks like an ancestor to a morion or morion-cabaset type of helm with the upturned rim.

Probably O.K. for the 15th century if at least past the mid century mark although I don't know how early these might have been first made ? I think we can be fairly sure of dates when a style has become common, popular or in fashion but early versions of any style might have been made earlier than we can prove by maybe a decade or two ? Or, there might be a short window of time in certain cases where the first ones made caught on as fashionable very quickly ? This might vary a great deal for different styles: A king having a helm made of an original type might create an instant style copied by his nobles?

Living history groups may need more certainty about their kits that can be " plausible " for a less strict personal approach with a lot more wiggle room about what works with what. Wink

In the other direction there may be some old styles still being used in combination with newer styles by the less rich nobles, city or rural militias, mercenaries and the use of spoils of war or anything still functional. High nobles and the rich not wanting to be caught dead with out of fashion kit for the sake of social status if nothing else.

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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not sure I have seen this exact style of arms but floating articulation was fairly common in 'german gothic' arm harnesses of the period. I can think of several without rivet articulation.

RPM
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