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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 1:14 am    Post subject: Reproduction Armour. Or rather, Panzer         Reply with quote

Right. I want one.
http://www.tiger-1.org/#/detling2008/4531739276

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Reproduction Armour. Or rather, Panzer         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Right. I want one.
http://www.tiger-1.org/#/detling2008/4531739276


I guess if one can avoid the " politically incorrect " pitfalls that seem to go with WWII German Nazi period one could say that the equipment is cool and WOW having a real Tiger I tank is the ultimate in " armour ".

Probably this kind of stuff will get more morally neutral as decades or centuries pass ! One could say the same of a group portraying the Mongol Hordes ...... time makes the horrors interesting history and less charged with emotion or political negative baggage.

Actually my first reaction was: Cool tank Wink Surprised

Side note: We usually don't discuss modern or semi-modern stuff like tanks or early Ironclads or battleships etc ..... but they are part of the history of weapons and armour as far as I'm concerned and from a design and aesthetic point of view I can appreciate a Tiger tank, a Sherman tank or a Spitfire or Stuka dive bomber .... but maybe that's just me. Confused Laughing Out Loud

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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wow, they did a great job.

i interned with the marine corps museum over the summer and the last winter break and got to spend some time in their vehicle restoration department. the guys who restore tanks and plains are true craftsmen.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Close, but the tracks aren't right. The extreme width of the real tracks, so necessary for a good ground -to - weight ratio, is a big part of what conveys the aesthetic of colossal mechanical brutality that we all know and love! Unless you happened to suddenly find yourself on the wrong side of it at close range... Eek!


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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Close, but the tracks aren't right. The extreme width of the real tracks, so necessary for a good ground -to - weight ratio, is a big part of what conveys the aesthetic of colossal mechanical brutality that we all know and love! Unless you happened to suddenly find yourself on the wrong side of it at close range... Eek!


I think there were special narrow tracks used for rail transport to narrow the footprint/width of the Tiger tanks as the wide track was too wide for rail transport: The heavy tanks where very inefficient to drive long distances and using trains was much better logistically to get large numbers of them to the front. Also, wear and tear on tracks as well as huge amounts of fuel made rail transport more economical when possible or practical.

When the narrow track was used the outer set of wheels where removed: I think on roads and for short distances the narrow tracks worked fine but for true combat use on soft ground the wide tracks where essential as mentioned.

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Gert-Jan Beukers




Location: Voorhout, The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:


When the narrow track was used the outer set of wheels where removed: I think on roads and for short distances the narrow tracks worked fine but for true combat use on soft ground the wide tracks where essential as mentioned.


In the early stage of the war (invasion of France) the German Panzers had narrow tracks. In this stage the Germans thought that they needed light, quick tanks for the Blitzkrieg. Later on as the war caried on, the Germans noticed they needed heavy tanks with muchos armour. Poorly, these heavy tanks with narrow didn't work well in the mud and snow so they put broad tracks on them. In France and Germany itself was the wheater different and were many good roads for the narrow tracks. The tanks used in the east had broad tracks, the ones used in France and Germany had still the narrow ones.

Greetings,

Gert-Jan

Correct me if I'm wrong.... I'm dutch
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gert-Jan Beukers wrote:
Jean Thibodeau wrote:


When the narrow track was used the outer set of wheels where removed: I think on roads and for short distances the narrow tracks worked fine but for true combat use on soft ground the wide tracks where essential as mentioned.


In the early stage of the war (invasion of France) the German Panzers had narrow tracks. In this stage the Germans thought that they needed light, quick tanks for the Blitzkrieg. Later on as the war caried on, the Germans noticed they needed heavy tanks with muchos armour. Poorly, these heavy tanks with narrow didn't work well in the mud and snow so they put broad tracks on them. In France and Germany itself was the wheater different and were many good roads for the narrow tracks. The tanks used in the east had broad tracks, the ones used in France and Germany had still the narrow ones.

Greetings,

Gert-Jan


Agreed, but I read that for the Tiger I, and maybe some other wide track tanks, there was a narrow track that could be put on specifically for transport with the regular wide track being put back on when they reached the front.

Removing the outer wheels also made the footprint narrower, as I mentioned, but I would imagine that with the narrow tracks one would avoid trying to go too fast on rough terrain as this might be damaging to the whole drive system.

I think the Tiger I was designed with the wide tracks in mind but with the optional narrow tracks for transport only. As you said the earlier and much lighter tanks worked fine with narrow track. ( Oh, the wide tracks on the Russian T-34 where noticed by the Germans as essential on the softer and often muddy steppes of Russia and when designing the Panther and Tiger tanks the Germans copied the idea I think ).

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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Panther was intended to be a direct copy of the T34, but German engineers and mechanists suffered near fatal mental breakdowns from the crude Soviet fabrication metods.
As a result, they went on to design the Panther, which ate T34s for lunch, but cost several times as much, and had about five times as many parts. Kind of trying to copy a coffe kettle and ending up with an espresso machine...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Darryl Aoki





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the track, suspension, and drive sprocket, the "Tiger" looks like it was built up off a T-54/T-55. Most German tanks from the Tiger on had an interleaved configuration for the roadwheels, and had the drive sprocket up front. This tank's got it in the back.

Having said that, the track's the only real thing that gives the tank away as not being a Tiger, and most people won't pick up on that. The modifications they did are REAL nice.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I won't pretend I know much about tanks, but I always figured the tiger was a physical personification of the words: PANZER SMASH!

M.

EDIT: I see your Tiger and raise you a P1000. Wish I had a P1500 rendering >.>


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Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Darryl Aoki is absolutely correct - this Tiger has been built up by enthusiasts on a T55 chassis. It's been doing the rounds on the UK scene for a few years, now. It's still an impressive beast, well worth the journey to Detling to see it in action.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Mar, 2009 1:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Darryl Aoki wrote:
From the track, suspension, and drive sprocket, the "Tiger" looks like it was built up off a T-54/T-55. Most German tanks from the Tiger on had an interleaved configuration for the roadwheels, and had the drive sprocket up front. This tank's got it in the back.

Having said that, the track's the only real thing that gives the tank away as not being a Tiger, and most people won't pick up on that. The modifications they did are REAL nice.


Good to know and still impressive as a reproduction built up on another tank body.

My previous comments are still accurate as far as discussing the real thing: I did find the source where I read about the narrow travelling track,

THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THANKS AND ARMOURED FIGHTING VEHICLES, Amber Books, 2002
Page 243 QUOTE: " As the combat width tracks made it wider overall than standard railway dimensions, it was arranged so that narrow " travelling " tracks could be fitted, with the outer layer of road wheels removed for rail transport. Rail transport was a necessary requirement since the combat weight of approximately 56,900 kg rendered the Tiger I too heavy for any other method of long-distance move."

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Mar, 2009 1:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
I won't pretend I know much about tanks, but I always figured the tiger was a physical personification of the words: PANZER SMASH!

M.

EDIT: I see your Tiger and raise you a P1000. Wish I had a P1500 rendering >.>




Yeah, this monster tank was actually in the planning stage at some point during the war: Hitler really liked really big war machines ....... Eek!

Oh, I think the twin BIG guns were supposed to be 11" guns like the ones used on battlecruisers or pocket battleship.

I think the smaller one between the tracks was a more modest 5" ( 128 mm ) anti-tank gun.

The idea was to produce a massive land-battleship that would be unstoppable using conventional tanks.
The gas mileage would have been incredible although at that size maybe diesel or even steam power might have worked on paper ! Assuming the challenging engineering problems could be solved the amount of resources needed to build one of these would have been impractical. As well, crossing any rivers would have meant fording them as no bridge could accommodate it's size or weight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1000_Ratte

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Jeff Kaisla




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Mar, 2009 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M. Eversberg II wrote:
I won't pretend I know much about tanks, but I always figured the tiger was a physical personification of the words: PANZER SMASH!

M.

EDIT: I see your Tiger and raise you a P1000. Wish I had a P1500 rendering >.>



That would definitely be an intimidating sight on the battlefield had it been built! Eek! Can you imagine being one of the poor guys who would have had to change out a damaged track?!?
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Mar, 2009 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, yes, I did indeed forget to mention my other big objection to the ersatz 'TIger'; the rear sprocket. That massive front drive sprocket on the real Tigers was a big part of the look, in my opinion.
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