Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Bishop Odo's armour Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,265

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Bishop Odo's armour         Reply with quote

I know his armour has been talked about many times but everything I have seen is about if it is mail or some other armour type. I looked at this picture: http://www.nndb.com/people/010/000102701/odo-of-bayeux-sized.jpg and it is obvious that he has mail under this thing. You can see mail as it is depicted everywhere in the Tapestry on his head (coif) and on the lower part of his hands, so it doesn't make sense that "the thing" on the main part of the body would also be mail but differently depicted. It has to be something worn over the mail. Scale armour in combination with mail would be too heavy I suppose... So it is either some sort of much discussed padding or maybe some kind of clothes that points him out as a bishop maybe? Maybe while most man liked to wear padding under the mail, he liked to wear it over the mail? I won't enter in a discussion what material the padding is made of (if it is padding) because I think it is quite impossible to say with any certainty. Please comment. If this has already been brought out I apologize, I couldn't find anything that relates to this specific point.
View user's profile Send private message
Gary Teuscher





Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 704

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It could be scale, scale and lammelar were at times worn over mail, though you don't see it very often in the west, more in Byzantium and among turkish heavy cavalry.

What I have heard most commonly is that it is either a Jazerant type armour, or padding over mail, which are both fairly similar other than one is integral.

As far as a "church heraldry" type thing - It does not look like something that would be realted to the church I do not think. Would not crosses be used?
View user's profile Send private message
James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
Joined: 20 Apr 2005

Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any of the things you mentioned are likely; we know little to nothing about any of them in this time period and the artwork is not clear enough for us to say the garment is one thing or another.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,393

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If Odo is wearing a jazerant then mail would not be visible since it was sandwiched between padded fabric. The Tapestry is probably a little too early to be depicting such an armour. Nicolle reckons that Crusaders adopted it after encountering the kazaghand in the Middle East.
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,265

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary Teuscher wrote:
It could be scale, scale and lammelar were at times worn over mail, though you don't see it very often in the west, more in Byzantium and among turkish heavy cavalry.

What I have heard most commonly is that it is either a Jazerant type armour, or padding over mail, which are both fairly similar other than one is integral.

As far as a "church heraldry" type thing - It does not look like something that would be realted to the church I do not think. Would not crosses be used?


I agree, if it is church heraldry, there should be crosses. It was just a thought, that it would maybe make sense that it is something for esthetic, not protective role, because it would be weird that he is the only one wearing padding at all or the only one wearing it differently than others.
View user's profile Send private message
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Either someone messed up, or it's something that the good Bishop felt he should wear to make himself stick out. It's also a way to contrast him with William.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Sat 31 Jan, 2009 1:37 am    Post subject: Bishop Odo         Reply with quote

Hi guys

The principle characters are named in thread on the embroidery, so I don't think this is an artistic convention to differentiate Odo . Is it not believed that the mace held by Odo, trained as a warrior, also denotes his role/rank within the clergy and the belief the a churchman should not spill blood?

Odo's helm is also different in as much as he has the 'bobble' at the peak of it.

There does appear how ever to be some attempt to convey some message by making his armour different to others in the Tapestry...what it is though we still continue to debate.

Of thread and more related to the Viking Padding perhaps is the fallen bodies been stripped of mail in the borders, if we are to believe these , then warriors where naked under the mail Wink

It can prove very difficult to read medieval iconography, especially in the case of the Tapestry where it has been reworked several times.

best
Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Bishop Odo         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:
Is it not believed that the mace held by Odo, trained as a warrior, also denotes his role/rank within the clergy and the belief the a churchman should not spill blood?


No. It probably does denote his rank, whether within the clergy or within the nobility in general, but the idea that clergymen weren't allowed to spill blood is a myth that has been repeatedly demolished by many different authors in many different works. Here's only one of the most accessible (though by no means the most comprehensive):

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/394539.html


Quote:
There does appear how ever to be some attempt to convey some message by making his armour different to others in the Tapestry...what it is though we still continue to debate.


I'm in favor of the idea that it was Odo who commissioned the Tapestry, and in that case he would definitely have spent resources on making sure that his figure stood out.
View user's profile Send private message
David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 7:01 am    Post subject: Bishop Odo         Reply with quote

Thank you Lafayette for the clarification on the mace myth. I am very familiar with belief that it was Odo who commisioned the Tapestry, it is still odd however that his 'armour' differs in it's depiction to the other Normans on the Tapestry despite all of the main players been readily identifiable to a literate viewer by their names above each of them.

If the depiction of Odo is also intended to convey his role to an illiterate viewer, they must have been perhaps familiar with him dressed in such a fashion as opposed to the usual mail hauberk. It still remains a conundrum!

best
Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mace + Head = Blood comes out. Still unsure how anyone follows that myth anymore :/

The commissioning theory makes some sense too. Maybe he actually possessed a fairly distinctive coat, like that bible guy who was killed over it?

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Gary Teuscher





Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 704

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Huggins wrote:

Quote:
Of thread and more related to the Viking Padding perhaps is the fallen bodies been stripped of mail in the borders, if we are to believe these , then warriors where naked under the mail


Yeah, I guess one could take from the tapestry that soldiers were naked under mail, and padded gambeson type armour was worn by the Saxons!
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many agree that this is trying to depict a form of armour similiar to a coat-of-plates. We have several 11th century finds of metal triangles (and rectangles) with rivets and remanants of leather backing. The original armour would be a leather tunic with metal rectangles or triangles riveted to the outside, the end result would look just like what Bishop Odo is wearing. He is not the only one wearing some other garment there are a few other soldiers wearing similiar tunics on the same tapestry (see attachment).
As to the club, several others are using clubs aside from Bishop Odo.



 Attachment: 62.53 KB
T014465A.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Nathan Beal





Joined: 02 Apr 2006

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hadrian Coffin wrote:
We have several 11th century finds of metal triangles (and rectangles) with rivets and remanants of leather backing. The original armour would be a leather tunic with metal rectangles or triangles riveted to the outside, the end result would look just like what Bishop Odo is wearing.


Can you point me to some references of what you have in mind here, i'm struggling to think of anything i have come across matching this.

N.

Beware of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
View user's profile Send private message
Ben P.




Location: Mountainous Terrain
Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 200

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It could be Lamellar Anna Commna mentioned that the normans would wear Lamellar
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 391

PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The metal rectangles were unearthed during excavation at Chateau de Blois the plate was ~6cm and dated to 9th-11th century,
Several more rectangles and triangles were found at Colletiere all with holes for rivets and some with remmanants of a leather backing, all were dated to circa 1000
Hope this helps,
Hadrian
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:33 am    Post subject: Bishop Odo's         Reply with quote

Hi Hadrian

Do you a reference source for these plates? It is always possible that these plates may not be 'armour', and could be the equivalent of the archeologist much beloved 'ritual object' when ascribing a use to something they do not really know what it 's intended function was.

I think we have to be very careful when attempting to understand the Tapestry, I think mail appears to be executed by the women who sewed the 'tapestry' with varying degrees of skill and what may look like 'scale' to us may well indeed be still mail.

best
Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Bishop Odo's armour
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2020 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum