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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Halberd Armourer's Mark for ID         Reply with quote

This would be a Styrian halberd, dated end XVI century.
Is there any member familiar with the mark stamped on its beak, or know of some source from i can require such info.
Thanks in advance
Fernando

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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not a single comment ?? Cry
Fernando
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

" Bumping " a Topic a few days after it was first posted can be a good idea to bring it back up front and maybe somebody with an answer for you will see it.

Nice halberd by the way. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Halberd Mark         Reply with quote

Hi Fernando

I must have missed this topic first time through. I checked a few sources but did not find any similar marks in the Hafted Weapons book or the Wallace Collection Catalog. By style and detail I would agree with your halberds date to the end of the 16th C. and in that case this could be an armoury mark as opposed to makers mark.

The details of the mark all look concave and this again speaks to later rather than earlier as the marks had a tendency to be in the reverse earlier with the back ground depressed and the detail raised. In the photo below you can see I outlined the three areas and it seems to me that the area 1 could be a helmet shape. This is what put the armoury mark in my mind as this would usually be used as an armourers mark and in specific usually a helmet makers mark. But if the local armoury or great house had a helm as part of its heraldry then it could appear as a symbol in such a mark. Area 2 seems to be devoid of detail and is difficult to make work in association with 1 if it is a helm. It could also be an area where the material delaminated or there was a deposit of slag and the material corroded or fell away.

Area 3 maybe a crest on the helm or a shield shape. Again I would anticipate there being detail on the interior and again I am not able to discern any there though it does seem to be more active in the surface than area 2. Now there are later marks that tend to just being depressioned shapes and this may well be one. I was just unable to find a similar one in my resources. I have an Italian book on Pole Weapons at work I will try to remember to check and see if there is anything of value there.

Best
Craig



 Attachment: 124.71 KB
mark1.jpg

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your best bet would be to contact the Landeszeughaus in Graz, Austria (Styria). They have these things stacked like firewood, and can probably tell you about the mark.

IIRC, this book (the essential polearms reference) contains some armourer's marks. I'm not 100 percent positive about that, though, because I don't have my copy in front of me. You should get it anyway Big Grin

http://www.amazon.de/Hafted-Weapons-Medieval-...amp;sr=8-1

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 10:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for input, Jean,
Indeed the 'bumping' idea results.
Replies suddenly started to show up Big Grin .


Thank you so much for your preciously detailed enlightening, Craig.
I sure learned a lot out of it. Let's see if that book you have at work reveals further info. Maybe not in the mark, i am afraid, as my example is in principle Austrian.

Thank you for the hints, Sean.
Actually i have already emailed the Graz Landesmuseum. I just hope they answer; wouldn't know if they are ready to do it Worried .
Somebody once sent me a PDF of 'Hafted Weapons ...' ; good material, but not so many marks, though.At least not mine, anyway Cry .


The problem with marks is that you may have gone through a book or some listing where eventualy the mark you are looking for, is there, but you fail to recognize it as such.
One thing is to have the mark pictured or (more often?) drawn in a publication, the other is to realize it is the same you have in your piece ... so often faded, badly punched, eaten by rust and so.
It takes very experienced eyes (like Craig's) or, sometimes, a clik in your mind that allows you to establish the connection between both.
And eventually i love having marked pieces ... and i get histerical when i have them identified.

Wish me luck, Gentlemen
Fernando
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan, 2009 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean,
I reconsider what i said about 'Hafted Weapions ...' not having so many marks. I looked again and there are actually 32 marks in the indicated section. I looked again and still think mine is not there.
Fernando
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just as i thought, it often takes correctly focused eyes to recognize a mark.
The Gentleman at the Graz Landesmuseum was kind enough to answer immediately to my query. He patiently set up a pictured comparison between my halberd and one of the museum examples, confirming that my piece is Styrian, from the end XVI century, and also a comparison between the mark in mine and the one in the said example, made by Pankraz Thaller from Hall near Steyr, sugesting that both would (quote) probably be the same.
Well, i had seen this mark in an halberd being offered for sale in a determined website, and would never suspect it would be the same as mine.
I attach here the mark sent by the Museum contact, comparing with mine and the one in the web.
What do you say about it ... Craig?

Fernando

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like a match to me.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject: Marks         Reply with quote

Fernando

Yes that looks like it could well be the mark. I did a classic beginners mistake when I broke the image down as I had not scaled it to the size it was probably struck at. I blew it up to see detail and did not check to see how small the bits would be in real life. As in most things taking a bit more time gives better results. Happy

Is this the way you guys are seeing the strike? This is the original with one of the others overlaid getting progressively darker.

Best
Craig



 Attachment: 35.78 KB
markcomp.jpg
This is the way the mark seemed to overlay the best.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's exactly what I see.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Grrrreat ... that's it Big Grin

Perfect set up, Craig Idea

... Don't you agree,Sean?

Thank you both, for making me happy Happy

Fernando.
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