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David Morris




Location: London
Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Any ideas on this helmet?         Reply with quote

I wonder if anyone has any idea of what this is. Yes, I know it's a hat.
One of the London auction houses thought that it could be an eighteenth century fireman's helmet or possibly a seventeenth century inner lining for a Cavalier's hat .
I don't think it's either. The leather firemen's helmets that I've been able to find have been much cruder and utilitarian than this. They also have flaps that hang from the back to protect the neck.
As for being something worn under a hat; I don't think so. It's too well made, and the decorative leather work implies that it was meant to be seen. Also, if I was a Cavalier, I'd be wearing a metal inner helmet, not a leather one. And why have a rim designed to keep rain off the face if it's worn under something else?
The only things that I have seen like this (although in metal) are kettle hats. They seem to very often have this decorative strip running from front to back. And I have seen this wavy line design. Did they make a variation in leather? Perhaps for archers? I have read accounts of archers having to take off their metal kettle hats, when discharging their arrows, because the metal brims got in the way. Maybe a (very hard) leather helmet with a narrow brim was a compromise for someone.

I have shown it to an expert in textiles who has confirmed that it has been very well made. She was very impressed with the uniformity of the stitching. She also can't see any reason why it couldn't be Tudor, or even earlier.

Any ideas?



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David Morris




Location: London
Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 11:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Didn't know how to add more pictures to original post, so have to do it this way.


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David Morris




Location: London
Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dito.
Should also mention that it is very small. But some of this may be due to shrinkage.



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Ugo M




Location: Roma - Italy
Joined: 04 Nov 2008

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I confess I ignore the origin of this helmet, but is very look like the one used (since centuries) for the "Palio di Siena", the historical horserace done twice a year.
May be it will help.

Regards

Uguccione
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are some surviving leather pikemand pots from the period of The English Civil War in the Tower collection, perhaps this may be something of the same variety. How thick is it?
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David Morris




Location: London
Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
There are some surviving leather pikemand pots from the period of The English Civil War in the Tower collection, perhaps this may be something of the same variety. How thick is it?


Not excessively thick. But very tough and hard.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Morris wrote:
Didn't know how to add more pictures to original post, so have to do it this way.


Simply attach one, then follow the same procedure to attach more. You can attach several to a single post.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Alessio J. Orlandi




Location: Bologna, Italy
Joined: 03 Aug 2007

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Any ideas on this helmet?         Reply with quote

David Morris wrote:
The leather firemen's helmets that I've been able to find have been much cruder and utilitarian than this. They also have flaps that hang from the back to protect the neck.

not so crude sometimes...
http://www.scdf.gov.sg/images/general/about_us/heritage_gallery/vintage/Hendry%20Leather%20Helmet.JPG

it could also belong to some english "bobby".

about the sewing: i've seen a 16th c. saddle that really looked like machine-sewed... stitches were so amazingly perfect!

Quote:

As for being something worn under a hat; I don't think so. It's too well made, and the decorative leather work implies that it was meant to be seen. Also, if I was a Cavalier, I'd be wearing a metal inner helmet, not a leather one. And why have a rim designed to keep rain off the face if it's worn under something else?

Sorry, but i don't agree. In many medieval clothes/armours/stuff there are wonderful details that are not easily accessible by the eye. A knight armour was perfect in every part, also those hidden parts nobody usually sees.
Plus, i don't agree about the usefullness of the leather helmet. A late period Cavalier doesn't have to face big heavy sword cuts and blunts. Helmets and "under-helmets" may have followed the same fate of the armour. In 17th century for example armours were made only for fashion purposes 'cause they were almost useless against fireweapons. So maybe a leather "underhelmet" was just needed to better fit the helmet or for making its inside "softer" (falling from horse with only an iron helmet could probably be more dangerous than falling without any helmet).

But these were just my two cents.
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Alessio J. Orlandi




Location: Bologna, Italy
Joined: 03 Aug 2007

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

anyway, it really looks like a 15th century kettle hat. Couldn't it be a kind of toy for a child?
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David Morris




Location: London
Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2009 4:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Alessio

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

"The leather firemen's helmets that I've been able to find have been much cruder and utilitarian than this. They also have flaps that hang from the back to protect the neck.
not so crude sometimes...
http://www.scdf.gov.sg/images/general/about_u...Helmet.JPG "

What I had in mind when I talked about leather fireman's helmets being crude (which I didn't make clear enough) was the pre-nineteenth century type, like this seventeenth century example in the Museum of London:

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/English/Even...;id=119390


"anyway, it really looks like a 15th century kettle hat. Couldn't it be a kind of toy for a child?"


It very elaborately wrought to be a children's toy. Although, of course, anything is possible. It did occur to me that it could be a helmet worn for military practice by a younger person.
Although I'm not an expert in arms, I am used to handling artifacts. And the hat is definitely pre nineteenth century, and is probably substantially earlier than that.
As you say, it really looks like a kettle hat - which is intriguing.
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Patryk Nieczarowski
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 20 Jan 2008

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2009 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello

I'm new here.

This leather helmet looks like without some detail from the top - there's circle line in the middle
It's hard to say something for sure but I've some suggestion - but it's only free idea

I mean this leather hut ,but with some element on the top ...for exemple little tube for decorative bands or for hors-hare looks very similar to the hats we knows from Mongol Empire area between 13th- qnd even 18th. cen.
It was made in leather or in leather-silk version ....some kind of decorative head-wear. The shape and constructoin is similar to iron helmets in the type of the hut.

Some exemples below. On the drow from Gorelik there're exemples nr 1 and 35 (from iluminations) .But as I said it's just my free idea ...I just see some analogy.

Or maybe it's just some design of Safari helmet Happy



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