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Ugo M




Location: Roma - Italy
Joined: 04 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 05 Jan, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Lance in the crusade period - dimensions         Reply with quote

Firstly, being a novice in this forum, I want to apologize in advance if the subject of this topic has already been already discussed.
Furthermore, the question is the following: how long was a lance in the crusade period.
As it is easy to find cronological informations regarding the "blade" (shape dimensions and evolutions through the years) regarding length and weight I only could find that a lance length in the middle ages was variable between circa 2,70 and 4,20 meters (9 to 14 feet).
Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks.

Uguccione
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You might want to be more specific, the crusading period went from the late 11th through the 14th centuries, a lot of weapon evolution went on over about 250 years.

I'd say the early period the 9-10 foot is probably right, getting a bit longer by the end, though I would not know exact dimensions by specific dates.
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Ugo M




Location: Roma - Italy
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Gary,
I would be interested in the evolution from the first half to the second half of the13th century.

Uguccione
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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As "lance" you speak of the weapon for the cavalry? I'm also interested in this period, can you post your conclusions about the tip? Tnks
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Ugo M




Location: Roma - Italy
Joined: 04 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ciao Gabriele,
I presume from your name that you're italian too.
If so I can understand your question, as in Italian we only have the word "lancia" where in english lance is the cavalry weapon and spear for infantry (you could translate it almost as "giavellotto").
I'm building a replica but, as you read is difficult to find out informations regading the evolution of his weapon in the crusade period.
I will post all the informations I will find.
Ciao.

Uguccione
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ugo M wrote:
Ciao Gabriele,
I presume from your name that you're italian too.
If so I can understand your question, as in Italian we only have the word "lancia" where in english lance is the cavalry weapon and spear for infantry (you could translate it almost as "giavellotto").
I'm building a replica but, as you read is difficult to find out informations regading the evolution of his weapon in the crusade period.
I will post all the informations I will find.
Ciao.


In French also it is Lance which also is the word for throwing.

Early on the difference between a lance to use from horseback and one to use on foot would have been small and many " spears " would have been useful for both uses and made the same way.

The lances would also have been used overhand rather than couched most of the time so would not have needed or been useful in the longer length, so the 8' to 9' range for these early dual purpose lances/spears.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
If so I can understand your question, as in Italian we only have the word "lancia" where in english lance is the cavalry weapon and spear for infantry (you could translate it almost as "giavellotto").


Don't feel bad, a few of the English assize of arms lists footmen's requiremtns as a lance, shield, etc. Or at least it would be safe to assume footmen, as no mount is mentioned, and there are no class of folk that are required to carry a spear.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ugo M wrote:
Thanks Gary,
I would be interested in the evolution from the first half to the second half of the13th century.


Some possibly related pieces of trivia fall in this era.

1) The earliest recorded instance I have found describing a "joust only" format of tournament took place at Brandenburg Casle Lebus, 1225 (various sources.)

2) Specialization of lances for tournament was done during the first quarter of the 13th century. The "socket" or "rochet" was a required type of safety tip which is only known by a brief description as having a "ring" like projection at the end instead of a sharp point. (Terms like coronel were not in use yet as far as anything I have come across.) The first trial for murder in tournament conduct, English "Walden Round Table" exhibition tournament, was called for after Robert II De Leyburn picked up a regular war lance from a rack and killed Arnulf de Munteny in tournament in 1252. (The "socket" was required for the contest.) The lance tip went clean through the neck area protection and severed Arnulf's arteries. De Munteny had previously given De Leyburn some embarrassing losses (permanently maiming De Leyburn's leg in some way.) Observers felt it was a deliberate grudge act. Nothing could be proven to refute De Leyburn's insistence that it was an accident, and he was acquitted. (Trial lasted something like one month.) To me, this suggests that war lances and joust lances were not too greatly different in appearance at that point. It is a matter of legal record, and you might be able to find more detailed descriptions of a lance considered mistakable for either war or tournament use at that point in time, if you are willing to put forth the effort to dig up the actual trial records.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Ugo M




Location: Roma - Italy
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 12:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank you gary jean and jared,
I will keep searching...

Uguccione
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 1:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

giavellotto = javelin
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Gabriele A. Pini




Location: Olgiate Comasco, Como
Joined: 02 Sep 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2009 1:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OT: I recently discovered that one of the principles of the "Accademia della Crusca", the society that welded the Italian dialects in a unique language, was to minimize the number of words in our vocabulary... As soos as we finish the trebuchet I will send them a good 5 kg of explosive mixture...

In effect there is not a "standard" definitions of the medieval weapons (the same concept of "standard" a necessity and invention of the 18th century).
"Giavellotto" I will traduce with "javelin", a missile weapon for footman.
"Lancia" can both be traduced as "Lance", the version for mounted trooper, with the variation for tournaments and for warfare, and "Spear", the version for footman not to be throwed.
But in the medieval manuscript a specific term can be used for the general purpuose.
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