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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan, 2009 8:28 pm    Post subject: Found a list of incomes and expenses         Reply with quote

http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Money__I.htm

I doubt it's authenticity, so I thought I'd bring it up here for review.

M.

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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan, 2009 9:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd have a hard time believing that a dyed wool tunic (250-350d) would cost more than an expensive sword (100-200d).
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Daniel Staberg




Location: Gothenburg/Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a part of the background material for an online game, the "ducats" used are the game currency and not an historical currency. The webpages usefullness from a historical point of view is nonexistent.
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Grayson C.




Location: NCF, Sarasota, FL
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan, 2009 10:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Staberg wrote:
It's a part of the background material for an online game, the "ducats" used are the game currency and not an historical currency. The webpages usefullness from a historical point of view is nonexistent.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducat

Seems like there is some historical precedence.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Jan, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well my face is red...didn't realize it was a game page. That will teach me to post while tired Eek!

M.

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James Aldrich




Location: Green Bay WI
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Jan, 2009 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For more than most people want to know, and a handy reference to currency and exchange:

Handbook of Medieval Exchange, Peter Spufford, Royal Historical Society, London, 1986.
ISBN: 0-86193-105-X

JSA
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Jan, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Grayson C. wrote:
Daniel Staberg wrote:
It's a part of the background material for an online game, the "ducats" used are the game currency and not an historical currency. The webpages usefullness from a historical point of view is nonexistent.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducat

Seems like there is some historical precedence.


GURPS uses the dollar as its unit of currency. How does this make its prices historically relevant?
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
Joined: 29 Feb 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jan, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All talk of money for Medieval Europe is nonsence. The unit of money was the silver penny struck at 240 to the pound of silver.All other forms of money were just units of account, mark, shilling,ecu, florin , unless they were marked specificaly as gold.i.e. gold florin, gold ducat,etc The Florentines River Arno gold mines were still being worked, and Venice and the other Itaian city-states got it in trade with the Byzentines and Arabs. The gold mines of antiquity in thrace and the Carpathians were worked out.
And all this is still meaningless, as there was very little to buy in the year 1000 ir whenever, and we cannot possibly know what it took in the was of pain and labour tto get a penny.We are too far away time.

Ja68ms
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 4:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Charlemagne set up that system, but I am unsure if it remained that way for the whole of the middle ages.

M.

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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James R.Fox wrote:
All talk of money for Medieval Europe is nonsence.


No, it's this statement that's pretty much nonsense. There were the units of account with their fixed gradations (pounds/shilling/pences, livres/sous/deniers tournois, libra/solidi/denarii, whatever), but there were also specific coins whose values fluctuated relative to those units. These coins included the ecu/escudo, groschen/groats, tornesels, francs, and the foreign gold bezants.

Don't underestimate the medieval monetary systems. They may not be quite as "moneyed" as the modern world, but money was pretty important to them.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is also a big difference depending on which side of the Renaissance of the Twelfth Century you are on. Before then, towns and a money economy are scarce; after then, they are common.

We have fairly reliable statistics on average wages and the cost of food in England back to the year 1250!
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
All talk of money for Medieval Europe is nonsence.


In the 12th century English Assize of arms, they mention how many marks or shillings a persons property is worth, and as such how they are expected to arm themselves for military duty.

They certainly used monetary systems to assess worth, though not much coin may have exchanged hands among rural types in particular.

Of course there are earlier similar assizes, using hides of land. I'm not sure if there was a monetary unit mention as the value of these, but I would think it was likley there was even if we have not found evidence of it.

So as far as money exchanging hands, sure, many operated mostly on the barter system, or dues/rents paid in kind (produce, animals, days of service, etc. etc.)

But there was certainly a monetary unit used for the assessment of things.
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 1:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If 12 pence makes a shilling, and 20 shillings makes the pound, where do "marks" fit in? The closest thing I know of marks and money are German marks, which may or may not be what they're talking about.

M.

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Jason Daub




Location: Peace River, Alberta
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you have any interest in medieval commerce at all the following two books by Peter Spufford are an excellent place to start; "Power and Profit: The Merchant in Medieval Europe" and "Money and its Use in Medieval Europe".
'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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Mark Millman





Joined: 10 Feb 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jan, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear M.,

On Wednesday 7 January 2009, you wrote:
If 12 pence makes a shilling, and 20 shillings makes the pound, where do "marks" fit in? The closest thing I know of marks and money are German marks, which may or may not be what they're talking about.

M.

The English mark was a unit of account equal to two-thirds of a pound sterling, which works out to 160 pence, or thirteen and one-third shillings, or 13s 4d.

A quick Wikipedia search suggests that there's no direct connection between the English mark and the German mark, although there does seem to be a (rather tenuous) historical connection through a shared ancestor in the ancient common-Germanic system of weights. But this is a conclusion based on information from Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt.

Best,

Mark Millman
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M. Eversberg II




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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jan, 2009 5:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can see where that distinction would come in handy in some income-based legal codes. Thanks.

M.

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