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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 8:42 am    Post subject: Viktor Berbekucz viking swords         Reply with quote

Hello! What do you think which of these two swords would be more typical and better representative of a 9th century viking sword? I like both of them and can't decide which one to buy. Dimensions are the same and there would be just a minor difference in weight because of the different fittings. I would like that the sword could represent viking sword through entire 9th century. Fuller on the lobated hilt sword could be made to go from inside the crossguard.



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Andres M. Chesini Remic




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: 17 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A closer pic, to see the riveting would help.-

Triangular pommel with stripes (type A) is more representative of the 8th century if it's plain iron. If it has some non iron decorations (Type 1), it might be found until the middle of the 9th century.

The other pommel (Type K) is found from the very beginning until the end of the 9th century. As far as I know, there are no findings of plain iron pommels of this kind.- (See if you can get it in bronze or brass and, if it's worth paying for it, with copper or silver inlays)
I think one of this kind would be the best choice.-

According to Petersen, this kind of pommel is of Frankish origin, brought to norway by the viking raids (This can be of use if you want to create a story for a reenactment character). It should be of two components if it's on the early 9th century, and it might be of two, if its in the second half of the centuty.- This is why riveting is important

Greetings

Andrés.-

"El que no viene por donde debiera, no viene a lo que dice - P. B. Palacios ~ Almafuerte"
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Luka,

The bottom sword appears to modeled on the famous 9th century sword housed in Dublin, for example see the picture on the cover of Ian Peirce's book. The handle appears to be lengthened, among other minor variations.

The top sword looks like it could have been modeled on any number of Peterson type H swords, which would fit in the 9th century, although strictly speaking I think the two vertical cuts on the pommel would make it an earlier type A form. The guard looks rather angular where it should be more smoothly boat-shaped I think to represent the norm.

Thus, in overall style, but not details, they seem to be fitting the era you are looking for.

However I would be worried about the blades if you are looking for something really historical. Those narrow fullers look decidedly un-viking to me. Also the odd way the fuller terminates near the guard on the bottom sword puts me off.

I'm not familiar with this maker - are these stage blunts? They have that look.

I guess it depends what you want them for - a general look that is recognizable from far or accurate details.

-JD
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Andres M. Chesini Remic




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: 17 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Those narrow fullers look decidedly un-viking to me. Also the odd way the fuller terminates near the guard on the bottom sword puts me off.


True! -I didn't take a look at the blade u^^ -

A broad fuller ending in the guard should be better... =)

Try to get petersen's, oakeshott or boydell's books Wink

"El que no viene por donde debiera, no viene a lo que dice - P. B. Palacios ~ Almafuerte"
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't have any other pictures but as these swords are not very expensive (about 200 euros) I would say the pommels are one piece. Tangs are peened. I will try to find out if type K pommel could be made of bronze or brass and what would be the price of inlays. Swords in the picture are blunt but my would be sharp, for cutting. There is no viking reenactment here in Croatia, I would just like to have a sword as accurate as possible for my period of interest regarding Vikings and I would like it not to be very expensive due to my financial situation. Worried Thank you very much Andres, your reply was very helpful. Happy
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Andres M. Chesini Remic




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're welcome n_n

If there's no viking group around, and you want one... then consider beginning one on your own... That's what I did three years ago =P

"El que no viene por donde debiera, no viene a lo que dice - P. B. Palacios ~ Almafuerte"
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka, how about the Del Tin 2100 (type H) pictured here? Isn't this in a similar price range? It's on the heavy side, but looks more historically accurate to me and should represent the era you want.

http://www.deltin.net/2100.htm

Or for a little more, Albion's squire line type H, which would likely be a much sweeter performer.

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/sq...viking.htm

And finally, here, a much nicer reproduction of the Dublin sword, for a little more again:

http://www.viking-shield.com/ (go to weapons, then albion)

[Of course it's always easy to spend someone else's money Happy ]
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Andres M. Chesini Remic




Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
[Of course it's always easy to spend someone else's money Happy ]


Not only easy, but fun too n_n

About the Del Tin sword, even if it has a somewhat better blade, a ferrous pommel is of type C, and not H; it should be of parallel sides, and peened on the top of the triangle.
As I see, this one is more conical and with no visible rivet (like the H).

Albion sword seems to have the same deal, but since the pommel is a bit rounder, and if it's rounded a bit more, (looking at it with loveful eyes) it might be considered a type B pommel, wich existed briefly in the mid 9th century.

Of the swords of viking-shield, none of those of the ninth century seem to avoid the problem of ferrous pommels... =S

But, well.... If one wants perfect accuracy, we always have Patrick Barta =P (http://www.templ.net/english/)

"El que no viene por donde debiera, no viene a lo que dice - P. B. Palacios ~ Almafuerte"
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albions are not available to me because of the high taxes on anything of such price that comes across the border unfortunately. I thought about Del Tins, they are available as well as Berbekucz in a local shop here, I already have 2 of them, but they are about 360 euros and Berbekucz swords are about 200, 210 euros and that is what makes a decision for me right now. Fuller will be made to go in the cross but it will have to stay narrow unfortunately. I just have to find out if type K pommel could be made of bronze. And for reenactment, I actually thought about starting a group, I might try it next summer.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's understandable. I also hate paying customs taxes and prefer to support my local economy. But I'm surprised that you have to pay so much for Del Tins in Europe, I would have thought they'd be cheaper.

Just for the sake of comparison (or for someone else reading this) here are some similar swords (quasi H, or B,C?) on the lower end of the price range that are readily available in North America:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP03...+Sword.htm

http://www.darksword-armory.com/swords3.html

Windlass and CI don't seem to have anything in that line right now.
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not the expert on this subject, but the previous comments about construction and ornamentation seem to be on target.
I personally would have a preference towards the second, lower sword model as being a little closer because of the ornamentation.

Attached is an image from Arador Armor Library, images of Royal Museum of the Army of and Military History in Brussels, Belgium, by Eli Steenput. Similar shapes dates back to Merovingian era images, but the ornamentation is more 9th century. This particular one is considered Carolingian in origin.



 Attachment: 133.52 KB
[ Download ]

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Hugo Voisine





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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you considered Sword-Gur ?

This maker is selling very decent looking and sweet handling viking swords for under 200 euro.

I own or owned a couple of his swords (including the V005) and I was extremely satisfied with what I got, considering the low price.

http://www.sword-gur.com/

« Que dites-vous ?... C'est inutile ?... Je le sais !
Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 4:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Dear Luka,

The bottom sword appears to modeled on the famous 9th century sword housed in Dublin, for example see the picture on the cover of Ian Peirce's book. The handle appears to be lengthened, among other minor variations.

The top sword looks like it could have been modeled on any number of Peterson type H swords, which would fit in the 9th century, although strictly speaking I think the two vertical cuts on the pommel would make it an earlier type A form. The guard looks rather angular where it should be more smoothly boat-shaped I think to represent the norm.

Thus, in overall style, but not details, they seem to be fitting the era you are looking for.

However I would be worried about the blades if you are looking for something really historical. Those narrow fullers look decidedly un-viking to me. Also the odd way the fuller terminates near the guard on the bottom sword puts me off.

I'm not familiar with this maker - are these stage blunts? They have that look.

I guess it depends what you want them for - a general look that is recognizable from far or accurate details.

-JD


entirely agree.

Also, blade geometry is very modern too,as such kind of swords were less triangular, a bit fatter at the debole.

Said that, they are likely all too good for the usual level of reenactment in our areas, with respect to such level the hilts are very good so they could be a good choice, if money is your concern.

If you want some review of B. products register at www.battlesword.net.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 4:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
That's understandable. I also hate paying customs taxes and prefer to support my local economy. But I'm surprised that you have to pay so much for Del Tins in Europe, I would have thought they'd be cheaper.

Just for the sake of comparison (or for someone else reading this) here are some similar swords (quasi H, or B,C?) on the lower end of the price range that are readily available in North America:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP03...+Sword.htm

http://www.darksword-armory.com/swords3.html

Windlass and CI don't seem to have anything in that line right now.


Croatia is outside EU so I guess he should pay taxes for getting Albions from Denmark or Deltins from Friul, despite the latter region being pretty close to Croatia.


he coudl still come to Maniago and then go back to Croatia via Istria passage .. cough cough
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugo Voisine wrote:
Have you considered Sword-Gur ?

This maker is selling very decent looking and sweet handling viking swords for under 200 euro.

I own or owned a couple of his swords (including the V005) and I was extremely satisfied with what I got, considering the low price.

http://www.sword-gur.com/


I didn't consider anything that is not available through my local shop because of the taxes mentioned. But I know Gur swords and they look very good for the price.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
That's understandable. I also hate paying customs taxes and prefer to support my local economy. But I'm surprised that you have to pay so much for Del Tins in Europe, I would have thought they'd be cheaper.

Just for the sake of comparison (or for someone else reading this) here are some similar swords (quasi H, or B,C?) on the lower end of the price range that are readily available in North America:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP03...+Sword.htm

http://www.darksword-armory.com/swords3.html

Windlass and CI don't seem to have anything in that line right now.


Croatia is outside EU so I guess he should pay taxes for getting Albions from Denmark or Deltins from Friul, despite the latter region being pretty close to Croatia.


he coudl still come to Maniago and then go back to Croatia via Istria passage .. cough cough


You're right about the EU. For a trip to Maniago, I don't have a car yet and there is no way I could talk my father into a trip to Italy just to buy a sword. He already says I have too much of them. I'm a student and I still depend on my parents. So what little money I have I'm forced to buy here in local shop. But my dealer could order a bit customized sword from Viktor, with a broader fuller and maybe some other details that would make a sword more accurate.
What did you mean by that they should be less triangular in geometry and fatter at the debole? I didn't quite understand it. Blush
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Richard Hare




Location: Alberta, canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good morning, Luka,

...and Happy New Year!

I do not suppose the swords of Vladimir Cervenka would come to you from the Czech republic without tax problems, otherwise I would have suggested you looking at his work.
I got a Viking style from him about a year ago, and at that time, the price was around Eu 250.
I love his work. The finish is not as high as some, but neither is the price! and all parts are hand forged and rivited in the right manner.
I think the swords you are looking at would be ok. if you could get a wider fuller.
The fuller is where many seem to fall down on making these swords.

Best wishes,

Richard.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Bruno Giordan wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
That's understandable. I also hate paying customs taxes and prefer to support my local economy. But I'm surprised that you have to pay so much for Del Tins in Europe, I would have thought they'd be cheaper.

Just for the sake of comparison (or for someone else reading this) here are some similar swords (quasi H, or B,C?) on the lower end of the price range that are readily available in North America:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP03...+Sword.htm

http://www.darksword-armory.com/swords3.html

Windlass and CI don't seem to have anything in that line right now.


Croatia is outside EU so I guess he should pay taxes for getting Albions from Denmark or Deltins from Friul, despite the latter region being pretty close to Croatia.


he coudl still come to Maniago and then go back to Croatia via Istria passage .. cough cough


You're right about the EU. For a trip to Maniago, I don't have a car yet and there is no way I could talk my father into a trip to Italy just to buy a sword. He already says I have too much of them. I'm a student and I still depend on my parents. So what little money I have I'm forced to buy here in local shop. But my dealer could order a bit customized sword from Viktor, with a broader fuller and maybe some other details that would make a sword more accurate.
What did you mean by that they should be less triangular in geometry and fatter at the debole? I didn't quite understand it. Blush


If you look at the blade, the two sides form a slight but evident triangle, while (earlier) viking blades had the two sides more parallel to each other, at least for most of the blade.

See this sketch for comparison. The blades of B's swords would be better suited to a late gaddjalt type.


[/b]



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Einige_wikingerzeitliche_Schwerter_aus_den_Niederlanden_3.jpg

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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Richard Hare wrote:
Good morning, Luka,

...and Happy New Year!

I do not suppose the swords of Vladimir Cervenka would come to you from the Czech republic without tax problems, otherwise I would have suggested you looking at his work.
I got a Viking style from him about a year ago, and at that time, the price was around Eu 250.
I love his work. The finish is not as high as some, but neither is the price! and all parts are hand forged and rivited in the right manner.
I think the swords you are looking at would be ok. if you could get a wider fuller.
The fuller is where many seem to fall down on making these swords.

Best wishes,

Richard.


Happy new year to you also. And all reading this topic. Happy I was negotiating with Vladimir about his type H viking sword few months ago but in the end the amount of money accumulated in the process of ordering was just too big and I had to cancel. And the waiting would be about a year, maybe more, and that also put me off.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jan, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruno Giordan wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
Bruno Giordan wrote:
J.D. Crawford wrote:
That's understandable. I also hate paying customs taxes and prefer to support my local economy. But I'm surprised that you have to pay so much for Del Tins in Europe, I would have thought they'd be cheaper.

Just for the sake of comparison (or for someone else reading this) here are some similar swords (quasi H, or B,C?) on the lower end of the price range that are readily available in North America:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~IP03...+Sword.htm

http://www.darksword-armory.com/swords3.html

Windlass and CI don't seem to have anything in that line right now.


Croatia is outside EU so I guess he should pay taxes for getting Albions from Denmark or Deltins from Friul, despite the latter region being pretty close to Croatia.


he coudl still come to Maniago and then go back to Croatia via Istria passage .. cough cough


You're right about the EU. For a trip to Maniago, I don't have a car yet and there is no way I could talk my father into a trip to Italy just to buy a sword. He already says I have too much of them. I'm a student and I still depend on my parents. So what little money I have I'm forced to buy here in local shop. But my dealer could order a bit customized sword from Viktor, with a broader fuller and maybe some other details that would make a sword more accurate.
What did you mean by that they should be less triangular in geometry and fatter at the debole? I didn't quite understand it. Blush


If you look at the blade, the two sides form a slight but evident triangle, while (earlier) viking blades had the two sides more parallel to each other, at least for most of the blade.

See this sketch for comparison. The blades of B's swords would be better suited to a late gaddjalt type.


[/b]


I think I understand, you are actually talking about profile taper, right? I agree that the blade is a bit more like later period gaddhjalts but I consider that a minor mistake as blades varied alot in width and taper so this one may not be typical but it is plausible. It can't be perfect for that money, right? Wink
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