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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Fri 28 Nov, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject: 19th century Greatcoats with shoulder capes.         Reply with quote

Hello guys,
I recently could wach For a few Dollars More, and Van Cleef´s greatcoat caught my attention.
Do you know if Greatcoats with shoulder capes were used for military purposes like in the North American Civil War, but in other places like Europe or Russia?

Thanks.



 Attachment: 31.12 KB
Infantry Greatcoat with shoulder capes del siglo 19 utilizado por los soldados de infantería y caballería, como el que usa Lee van cleef en por unos dolares más. (1).JPG


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B. Fulton





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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov, 2008 4:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While I can't think of a specific army's example I know the general style was popular for quite some time, and since most armies tend to copy each other (see the mass adoption of digital camo currently, or in Napoleonic times, the adoption of other country's headgear or weaponry like the lancers) it seems very likely.

I would look at cavalry units, they tended to be the flashy dressers of the time and something along these lines would suit them better than an infantryman I'd think.
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Jean-Carle Hudon




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PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: great coats         Reply with quote

I remember seeing similar coats for the Zouave regiments raised in Canada to defend the Papal state against Garibaldi's nationalists. I also think the style carried over with the french infantry into the trenches of WW1, but I don't have anything precise to refer to, but that is the general direction I would look into if I wanted to find similar greatcoats.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They were definitely in use by the Napoleonic period at the latest--by both infantry and cavalry (or at least dragoons). Just do a Google search on Napoleonic uniforms or Napoleonic greatcoats and you'll find plenty of examples.
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J.T. Aliaga




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
They were definitely in use by the Napoleonic period at the latest--by both infantry and cavalry (or at least dragoons). Just do a Google search on Napoleonic uniforms or Napoleonic greatcoats and you'll find plenty of examples.


I've seen pictures of Napoleonic/War of 1812-era British troops with the caped great coats as well. I believe Russian cavalry also wore them but cant find any source or pics.

And here's a link for the former
http://www.warof1812.ca/greatct.htm
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

B. Fulton wrote:
While I can't think of a specific army's example I know the general style was popular for quite some time, and since most armies tend to copy each other (see the mass adoption of digital camo currently, or in Napoleonic times, the adoption of other country's headgear or weaponry like the lancers) it seems very likely.

I would look at cavalry units, they tended to be the flashy dressers of the time and something along these lines would suit them better than an infantryman I'd think.


Hello, Thanks for your answers.
If i´m not wrong this style was used by both infantry and cavalry soldiers, i guess it was more common in higer rank cavalry guys.
I have seen both Confederate and Unionist versions. Most i wanted to know if the were used in the other side of the sea since i think they look awesome. What do you think?

Thanks for your answers! Laughing Out Loud

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Paul Kenworthy




Location: Saugus, MA
Joined: 18 Feb 2008

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Rondolfo,

The coat in the picture is a US regulation issue enlisted infantryman's overcoat. It is made of sky-blue kersey wool, is single breasted, has an elbow-length cape, and a stand-up collar. The regulation mounted service (cavalry, mounted artillery, and horse artillery) enlisted overcoat is also made of sky-blue kersey, but is double breasted, has a wrist-length cape, and a stand-and-fall collar.

Officer's overcoats were of a style called a "boat cloak." They were dark blue, closed with black silk frogs over toggles, had black silk gallooning on the sleeves to indicate rank, and frequently had the cape lined in the branch color (black for staff and general officers, sky blue for infantry, red for artillery, and yellow for cavalry). There was more variation in the style of officer’s coats since they purchased them privately. Later in the American Civil War, the regulations allowed officers to wear the enlisted mounted services coat since distinctive displays of rank attracted sniper fire. This was the same reason the later regulations allowed small rank insignia on the collar in lieu of shoulder boards or epaulettes.

The Confederate regulations specified an overcoat, but no coats were ever procured or issued to those regulations. Confederate troops wore pre-war militia coats, privately procured coats, or captured coats. Obviously, wearing captured uniforms presented a problem and one general proposed dying them black before issuing them. Most Confederate troops were never issued an overcoat at all.

Federal uniforms were loosely based on contemporary French uniforms, but caped overcoats had gone out of fashion in the French army by that time. They also occur occasional in civilian fashion, and in Great Britain in a form know as an Inverness. The Metropolitan Police in London wore caped overcoats in the 19th century, too. I’m going to check the reference to Canadians Zouaves in Papal service since French Zouaves were not issued overcoats. Zouaves and Turcos instead wore a distinctive hooded short cape called a talma.

Caped overcoats are a traditional military uniform in the United States. The US Military Academy adopted them in 1828 and cadets still wear them today. Following USMA’s lead, a number of military schools and academies use them too. That may explain why they remained in use in the US long after they went out of fashion in the rest of the world.

The US 1861 Regulations, including the uniform regulations, are on-line at Google books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ1CAAAAIAAJ...egulations

Best Regards,

Paul
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Kenworthy wrote:
Hi Rondolfo,

The coat in the picture is a US regulation issue enlisted infantryman's overcoat. It is made of sky-blue kersey wool, is single breasted, has an elbow-length cape, and a stand-up collar. The regulation mounted service (cavalry, mounted artillery, and horse artillery) enlisted overcoat is also made of sky-blue kersey, but is double breasted, has a wrist-length cape, and a stand-and-fall collar.

Officer's overcoats were of a style called a "boat cloak." They were dark blue, closed with black silk frogs over toggles, had black silk gallooning on the sleeves to indicate rank, and frequently had the cape lined in the branch color (black for staff and general officers, sky blue for infantry, red for artillery, and yellow for cavalry). There was more variation in the style of officer’s coats since they purchased them privately. Later in the American Civil War, the regulations allowed officers to wear the enlisted mounted services coat since distinctive displays of rank attracted sniper fire. This was the same reason the later regulations allowed small rank insignia on the collar in lieu of shoulder boards or epaulettes.

The Confederate regulations specified an overcoat, but no coats were ever procured or issued to those regulations. Confederate troops wore pre-war militia coats, privately procured coats, or captured coats. Obviously, wearing captured uniforms presented a problem and one general proposed dying them black before issuing them. Most Confederate troops were never issued an overcoat at all.

Federal uniforms were loosely based on contemporary French uniforms, but caped overcoats had gone out of fashion in the French army by that time. They also occur occasional in civilian fashion, and in Great Britain in a form know as an Inverness. The Metropolitan Police in London wore caped overcoats in the 19th century, too. I’m going to check the reference to Canadians Zouaves in Papal service since French Zouaves were not issued overcoats. Zouaves and Turcos instead wore a distinctive hooded short cape called a talma.

Caped overcoats are a traditional military uniform in the United States. The US Military Academy adopted them in 1828 and cadets still wear them today. Following USMA’s lead, a number of military schools and academies use them too. That may explain why they remained in use in the US long after they went out of fashion in the rest of the world.

The US 1861 Regulations, including the uniform regulations, are on-line at Google books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ1CAAAAIAAJ...egulations

Best Regards,

Paul


Excuse my ignorance, But what Do you mean with double breasted?
That the cape has buttons too like this one?
http://milkcreek.com/shop/images/cavgret1.jpg
Thanks for the useful info guys.


Do you know if they were in civilian use too, or any similar form of caped great coat?

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Paul Kenworthy




Location: Saugus, MA
Joined: 18 Feb 2008

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo,

The Mill Creek photo you link to is a reproduction of a mounted service overcoat. You can see that the cape is longer than the cape on the infantry overcoat, coming down as far as the sleeve cuff. You can also see the difference in the collar. The infantry collar stands straight up; the mounted service collar folds down. Unfortunately, what you can’t see is the feature that you asked about because the cape is buttoned closed hiding the front of the coat. Double-breasted means the front of the coat overlaps so that there are two rows of buttons. The infantry coat has a single row of buttons down the middle of the front; the mounted coat has two parallel rows of buttons, one on the right and one on the left.

For civilians, the two most popular caped overcoats in England were the Inverness and the Ulster. Technically the Inverness doesn’t have a cape. What appears to be a cape are actually very large sleeves. Here is a link to an English fashion plate from 1893. The gentleman in the bottom row, second from left is wearing an Inverness:

http://costumes.org/HISTORY/victorian/1893cut...a_ads5.jpg

The Ulster was named for the Ulster Overcoat Company of Belfast, Ireland which made a loose overcoat with a cape. It was made famous worldwide when Arthur Conan Doyle decided to outfit his popular detective Sherlock Holmes in one. A “deer stalker” hunting hat, Ulster coat, and large calabash pipe constituted his signature look. Here is a link to a photo of the Sherlock Holmes statue in London:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Estatua_de...ondres.jpg

Here is a link to a fashion plate from 1893 showing a gentleman (on the right) wearing a caped overcoat like an Ulster. You can see just below the cape that the coat is double-breasted because there are two buttons side by side:

http://costumes.org/HISTORY/victorian/1893cut..._ads14.jpg

Here is a link to a 1903 ad for an Ulster overcoat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ulsterovercoat_jan1903.jpg

Hope all that helps.

Best Regards,

Paul
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
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Posts: 347

PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much.
So, Ulster are mostly civilian and greatcoats of the previously shown configuration is for cavalry troops? Excellent.

So What do you think Van Cleef is wearing here?

http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dtrcleeflh4.jpg

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Paul Kenworthy




Location: Saugus, MA
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Dec, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo,

It's a little tough to tell, but it looks like an Ulster to me. It almost looks like it has patch pockets on the front. Military coats in the 19th century rarely had visible pockets

Best Regards,

Paul
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec, 2008 2:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to add to the mass of useful information already here, the Napoleon Series's index of articles on military organization during the Napoleonic Wars:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/c_organization.html

has some pages that describe and/or depict Napoleonic Wars military greatcoats in various levels of detail, such as

Greatcoats of the Minor German States 1808-1812 (detailed table of features, but no pictures)

Uniform of the Grenadiers-á-Pied de la Garde: 1810-1815 - clothing (includes description and pictures of a Grenadier greatcoat)

Dutch 2nd Cuirassiers, 1807-1808

Cavalry of the Bavarian Army 1800-1805

Cavalry of the Bavarian Army 1814-1815

Infantry of the Bavarian Army 1806
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Rodolfo Martínez




Location: Argentina
Joined: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the information guys.

Lafayette:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organ...tler2.html
Isn´t the Oficer wearing a gratcoat?
Do you know if those chevaux legers had something to do with the french cavalry model? (Those soldiers who asisted gendarmes in battle)

Thanks.

¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:
Isn´t the Oficer wearing a gratcoat?


Obviously, yes.


Quote:
Do you know if those chevaux legers had something to do with the french cavalry model? (Those soldiers who asisted gendarmes in battle.


As far as I know, yes, but it's a very distant connection; cavalry units with the chevaux legeres appellation persisted in French service through the 17th and 18th centuries, though with substantially changed roles. It was in the 18th century that the name began to be copied by other European powers for their light cavalry units, which by that time weren't all that different from other light cavalry types like chasseurs a cheval, Jagers zu Pferd, or (British) Light Dragoons.
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