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Will C




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 22 Nov 2008

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 5:17 am    Post subject: Conical Nasal Casque         Reply with quote

I found a reference in a 1930 submission to the metropolitan museum to a conical Nasal helm with a hinged nasal piece (Like the one the hospitaller wore in KoH) but I havent been able to find any further evidence of this anywhere on the net.

" Here is included a conical nasal casque which was dredged from the Thames and ... nasal defense forged with the bowl, the other with a hinged nasal defense. ..." - The Bashford Dean Memorial Collection
Stephen V. Grancsay: The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 25, No. 4 (Apr., 1930), pp. 86-94 (article consists of 10 pages) Published by: The Metropolitan Museum of Art

unfortunately I dont have access to the JSTOR website so I cant get any more information on the article. Can anyone help me? does anyone know of a helm like this, It is an unusual helm. I'm not even sure it actually exists.I've found documentation for a barbute with a hinged nasal but no conical helms. Its bugging me that this is the only reference I can find.

Also can anyone think of a reason why you would want a helm with a hinged nasal?
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Dan Dickinson
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Location: Michigan
Joined: 03 Oct 2004

Posts: 967

PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HI Will, where did you find the reference to the Norman helm with hinged nasal?
Here is the page from that article that references the helms...and it appears clear that it is referring to two separate helms....one a Norman nasal....and the other a barbute with hinged nasal.
However, I would be interested in hearing of any findings of conicals with hinged nasals.
Hope this helps,
Dan



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Will C




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 22 Nov 2008

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the website is http://www.jstor.org/pss/3255823 and it refers to The Bashford Dean Memorial Collection ,
Stephen V. Grancsay , The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 25, No. 4 (Apr., 1930), pp. 86-94 (article consists of 10 pages) Published by: The Metropolitan Museum of Art

however it only shows the first page you need to be a member to gain access to the rest.

google shows this : " Here is included a conical nasal casque which was dredged from the Thames and which dates from the time of the norman conquest ... nasal defense forged with the bowl, the other with a hinged nasal defense. "

One is definately a norman nasal helm not sure about the others, it just reminded me of the helm from KoH and peaked my curiosity, is it a real helm? The barbute with the hinged nasal was on a totally separate page
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Dan Dickinson
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Location: Michigan
Joined: 03 Oct 2004

Posts: 967

PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Will,
Unfortunately those"..." in google are the problem.
The page I posted is the one from the full article and the "... "in google are that parts that show that it's not a conical with a hinged nasal, but rather two different references.
Dan
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Will C




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 22 Nov 2008

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I knew it was a longshot that the hinged nasal would still be referring to a conical helm however the initial reference to the norman style and the subsquent one to hinged nasal brought up the image of the one in Koh and I started wondering if it was a real helm. What did they base the helm on in KoH? or is it total fantasy?
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Will C




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 22 Nov 2008

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

on a side note Plate G3 in Osprey: Elite - The crusades (below) shows a flemish knight c.1210 with a transitional pot helm does anyone know if anyone makes a helm like this?


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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Will C wrote:
on a side note Plate G3 in Osprey: Elite - The crusades (below) shows a flemish knight c.1210 with a transitional pot helm does anyone know if anyone makes a helm like this?


Medieval Reproductions:


Museum Replicas:


Mercenary's Tailor:



Outfit4Events:





Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More from Outfit4Events:




They have 5 or 6 more as well, including this one:



Steel Mastery:


Plus one or two others.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

True story here concerning this:

I was on the cover of the summer 2005 Museum Replicas catalogue as Boromir (for the new LoTR productst at the time)and while I were getting ready for the photoshoot, I was able to view the prototypes of MRL KoH stuff. Bruce told me that the hinged conical helm was made for David Thewes specificially because his nose was too large to fit comfortably under a standard fixed nasal helm. I laughingly inquired to the authenticity of it and was told that there was an existing example somewhere in London that it was modeled after that was within the 11-12 C timeframe.

One could technically assume that if this happened in contemporary film that it could have occured on the medieval battlefield as well.

Don't know if this helps or not!

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Will C




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 22 Nov 2008

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad- I've seen a few of those and they are all close to what I'm looking for but if you have a closer look at the helm he is wearing you can see its different.


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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Nov, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Will C wrote:
Thanks Chad- I've seen a few of those and they are all close to what I'm looking for but if you have a closer look at the helm he is wearing you can see its different.


Your original pic was too small to see the details, but the larger one makes them more obvious. Check out Outfit4Events they have many of these type and there may be some closer to that pic than what I posted.

I have no doubt any custom armourer like Illusion, Medieval Reproductions, or even Steel Mastery could make you one exactly like that, though.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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