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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: Spanish/Portuguese sword rapier for coments         Reply with quote

This one will be home for Christmas.
Blade 98 cms (38 1/2"), with 20 mm (3/4") width.Total length 114 cms (45"), which makes it almost two inches "off mark" Eek! , as the period allowance was five palms (110 cms=43").
The huge cup bowl is 16 cms (6.3") wide, which is the largest cup this seller ever sold.
Attributed date by the seller around 1700.
Slightly faded inscription on the blade reads in one side VIVA EL REY and on the other DE PORTVGAL.
Fernando

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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Beautiful, Fernando! I am a big fan of that type of grip.

I've always found it interesting that the Spanish continued to use this style of sword well into the 18th century. Thanks for sharing this!

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Thu 20 Nov, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Bill.
In fact, cup hilted sword "survivors" were still a resource for the population in the first half of the 19th century ... at least in the various Portuguese civil wars.
Fernando
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Sun 23 Nov, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Spanish/ Portuguese rapier for comments         Reply with quote

Fernando, your sword's tip looks blunt. Will you consider sharpening it?
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Tue 25 Nov, 2008 5:46 am    Post subject: Re: Spanish/ Portuguese rapier for comments         Reply with quote

Hi Shahril,

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
Fernando, your sword's tip looks blunt. Will you consider sharpening it?


Absolutely not !
I wiil keep it as it is; most probably it is like that since its origin. In any case i won't touch it.
Fernando
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David Black Mastro




Location: Central NJ
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 279

PostPosted: Tue 25 Nov, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a nice-looking cup-hilt rapier.



What's also interesting is that cup-hilted swords were sometimes fitted with broadsword blades--eg., the bilbo (the guard is actually two shells, but it seems similar enough to the cup-hilt), and the "Caribbean cup-hilt" broadsword (considered by at least some curators to merely be a bilbo variant) that was evidently so popular with pirates. I've handled a couple of original "Caribbean cup-hilts", and the most striking thing I have found about them is that, despite the substantial blade and truly vestigal pommel, they have all been light and well-balanced. Such swords were even issued to Pampangan soldiers in the Spanish service in the Philippines, so they apparently figure into the history of eskrima too.

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Bruce Willis





Joined: 04 Apr 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Great rapier         Reply with quote

Bom Dia Fernando,

For some reason, I can email you so I am posting a link to my 17th Century Portuguese Mer unit here in California.

Make sure you see the photos. I think you will appreciate them.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/companhiasantaisabel/

Bruce



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Restoring sanity, morality, and order to Hollywood Blvd.
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Rodrigo, boa noite,
That's nice Happy .
Are these reenactors Portuguese folks? Azorean or Continental?
Do you belong in this group?
Where are they based?
Meus cumprimentos
Fernando
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Black Mastro wrote:
That's a nice-looking cup-hilt rapier...



Thank you David Happy
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Bruce Willis





Joined: 04 Apr 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fernando,

We are in California. The man in red is a Spanish pig. He is an inquisitor to ensure our loyalty. We portray mercanarios in Asia. When I was living in Thailand, I did alot of research on the large Portuguese private armies of the Siamese rulers. Siam was never colonized, but up to 40,000 Portuguese mercs served there in various armies from 1520-circa 1640.

This event is our annual Thai New Year Parade. We actually serve as bodyguards for a 6 year old Siamese princess, who is actually portrayed by a Salvadorean. That's USA for you. She's half Mayan so she passes.

Bom Dia Amigo.

Bruce
aka Rodrigo



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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Wed 26 Nov, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Magnificent Bruce; outstanding Happy Wink .
I am not a cultured guy, but i have already been through this Mercenary situation in Siam and around. I guess i have to go back to that material once more.
Sorry for my confusion, what is your nationality ... i mean your origins ? Confused
... That is, if you don't mind to tell Wink
Fernando
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 1,265

PostPosted: Sat 29 Nov, 2008 5:36 pm    Post subject: Spanish/ Portuguese rapier for comments         Reply with quote

It's weird to see a Salvadorean girl portraying a Siamese princess.
To me, the boy with the flag and 2 other princesses (or queens, who knows?) are Thai-Americans.
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Bruce Willis





Joined: 04 Apr 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fernando,

100% American. However, my grandparents were all Jews from Ukraine, Baltics, Galicia, and Germany.

Shahil,

This is America. We have Chinese doing WW2 German. I take it your Georgian. In my WW2 group, we have a Georgian Legion (German) that is commanded by a guy who is half Japanese and his wife who runs the German Red Cross medics is Mexican-American of Celtic Spanish ancestry.

In my 16th Century Scottish clan, our fiddler is black and one of our top champions is Native American but they all proudly portray Celts. God Bless America, only in America.

As far as the princesses go. We know have three; one is Mexican-American, one is Salvadorean, and our newest 10 year old is half Japanese, half German. Next year our son (who is half-Thai) will join. The flag carrier is Mexican.

Confused, yet?
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Bruce Willis





Joined: 04 Apr 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh yes, and I have a re-enactor friend. He is Japanese-America. He is a Union Army colonel, commander of our Imperial Japanese WW2 unit, and a real-life officer and veteran in the US Army Reserve.

Bruce
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David Black Mastro




Location: Central NJ
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Reading list: 20 books

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Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Portuguese mercs also fought for the Chinese at that time, and they were also part of the manpower of the wako.
"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Bruce Willis





Joined: 04 Apr 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David

Right you are. These mercs were all over Asia; India, China, Japan, East Indies, Burma, Siam, and even had a large presence in the various armies of East Africa.

Here's are great books on this subject;
http://www.amazon.com/Pirate-Far-East-811-163...amp;sr=8-1

ttp://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Chinese-Armies-1520-1840-Men-at-Arms/dp/1855326558/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228075286&sr=1-3

Apparently, there were many black mercs in these contingents too. I don't know if they were slaves are freedmen. Many Portuguese also merc'd themselves out to the Spanish in Nueva Espana post conquest. There were a number Portuguese noblemen on Coronado's expedition.

Here are some pics of our new armies being trained



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David Black Mastro




Location: Central NJ
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Reading list: 20 books

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Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sun 30 Nov, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce Willis wrote:
David

Right you are. These mercs were all over Asia; India, China, Japan, East Indies, Burma, Siam, and even had a large presence in the various armies of East Africa.

Here's are great books on this subject;
http://www.amazon.com/Pirate-Far-East-811-163...amp;sr=8-1

ttp://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Chinese-Armies-1520-1840-Men-at-Arms/dp/1855326558/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228075286&sr=1-3



Yep, I have both of those titles.


Despite chronic shortages of manpower, the Portuguese were able to establish themselves strongly in Asia, because of superior naval technology. While many folks seem to associate the development of standoff gunnery on sailing ships with the Elizabethan English, the Portuguese were, in fact, the pioneers of this, c. 1500. They mounted powerful, stone-throwing camelos on their caravels, and used these to great effect against all enemies. I recommend Galleons and Galleys by John F. Guilmartin, for more info.



Quote:
Apparently, there were many black mercs in these contingents too. I don't know if they were slaves are freedmen.


From what I understand, they were slaves.


Quote:
Many Portuguese also merc'd themselves out to the Spanish in Nueva Espana post conquest. There were a number Portuguese noblemen on Coronado's expedition.



And de Soto's, too.

Apparently, the Portuguese soldiers in de Soto's expeditions were well armed and equipped, whereas the Castilians made do "with very bad lances", according to Harold L. Peterson, who quoted the Gentleman of Elvas. Check Peterson's excellent Arms and Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783, which should still be available as a Dover reprint. It's a very useful book, and Peterson was a great writer/researcher--something like America's version of Ewart Oakeshott.

Best,

David

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bruce Willis wrote:
... However, my grandparents were all Jews from Ukraine, Baltics, Galicia, and Germany.


Interesting ancestry; Sephardits and Aschkenasi.

Sometimes, when comunicating with people of various origins, i feel myself abnormal Eek!
I am Portuguese, son, grandson and great grandson of Portuguese, and reside in Portugal; actually in the same place where i was born ... well, after being around for a while Wink .
Quite monotonous, right ?
Fernando
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Fernando Viana




Location: PORTUGAL
Joined: 13 Aug 2007

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Black Mastro wrote:
... Despite chronic shortages of manpower, the Portuguese were able to establish themselves strongly in Asia, because of superior naval technology. While many folks seem to associate the development of standoff gunnery on sailing ships with the Elizabethan English, the Portuguese were, in fact, the pioneers of this, c. 1500. They mounted powerful, stone-throwing camelos on their caravels, and used these to great effect against all enemies ...


So true, David.
Indeed you are well documented in the subject.
I have a very interesting article about this situation. It is a PDF document. In case you or other members are interested, just send me a PM with your email address.
Fernando
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Bruce Willis





Joined: 04 Apr 2007

Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David

I think we've been reading the same books.

Fernando, please send me your info on PDF.

Fernanod, you are Portuguese. That means you are Romano-Celt with probably some Berber and Sephardic blood. Be proud, my friend. You come from a very ancient and proud land.

Here are my favorite Portuguese Merc Pics
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