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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 5:27 am    Post subject: Shields in the 15th century         Reply with quote

Hi.
I've been trying to research the design and usage of shields in different periods. Right now, I'm trying to gather information on shields from the early 15th century.
So, if anyone has pictures or information about these, sharing would be apreciated.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Matt Easton




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Shields in the 15th century         Reply with quote

What do you want to know exactly? I can help, but there are thousands of manuscript images, so it would be good if you could narrow it down a bit. Happy
Essentially two types of shield were very common in Western Europe at that time - rectangular convex pavise type shields (big and small) and small curved heater shields with a cut-out for the lance (mainly used on horseback of course). But there were lots of other types around as well.

Matt

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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This topic is of great interest to me. I would like us to put together a list with details and references on the two main ones mentioned, and also on those "other types" too. My knowledge of 15th century shields is somewhat limited to pavise and small heaters, I would like to expand that. I am primarily interested in shields use in battle like pavise, not Talhafor's dueling shield types, but it can't hurt to include them in a list too with description of their use.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Matt Easton




Location: Guildford, Surrey, UK.
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well you can start by looking through my galleries here:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/main.p...temId=9902

Matt

Schola Gladiatoria - www.fioredeiliberi.org
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Marcus Irgens





Joined: 08 Apr 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

(Hei Elling)

The pavise was in any case a shield that was used a lot, at least in th central/eastern part of Europe. We have many pictoral sources from the early to mid 15th cen. , that they were used by footmen, and in relatively large scale.

I have failed to find so many sources on the late 15th century, do they perhaps decrease in use?
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Scots used pavaises at Flodden and I see them in late 15th inventories fairly often so I assume they were still in common use. I have seen pavaises from central europe dated to the late 15th and early 16th so I assume its similar there as well.

RPM
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a nice gallery Matt. I saw a few shields in there that I was not expecting to see.

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/main.p...temId=6967

I was not expecting to see large kite shields in the same period and plate. Very interesting.


http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/main.p...temId=6927

This is an odd shape for a shield. Very interesting.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vassilis Tsafatinos wrote:
That is a nice gallery Matt. I saw a few shields in there that I was not expecting to see.

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/main.p...temId=6967

I was not expecting to see large kite shields in the same period and plate. Very interesting.


Well, the armour was expensive thing - and shields could be made much faster and cheaper to outfit larger number of soldiers and still offered a significant increase in defensive cappabilities, particculary against ranged weaponry of the time. And if you examine the image closer you will note that there are archers present.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm genrally looking for pictural evidence of shield use on foot.
I have seen several sources showing the use of the small heaters with the cut-out used on foot (For instance in gladiatorial and Codex Wallerstein).
I have tried using a larger late 13th/14th c heater shield strapped to the shoulder in combination with polearms/spear, which works quite well. (especially in reenactment combat, where armour is less effective) Basically I am looking for sources on this, so I can recomend it to others.

I have found that the shield strapped to the shoulder also gives protection to the head when fighting with spears and fencing masks. It deflects thrusts that would otherwise hit you in the head, which, helmet or not, is quite unplessant and might tip vou over.
From these experiments I'm also wondering if the cuttout might actually be a view slit rather than a lance rest...

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill your second example appears to be a Spanish adriga, a leather shield used by both Spanish and Morrish troops and also used very late in Spain at least in the New World. They are shown in inventories of gear taken on most every exploratory/conquest expedition through the mid early 17th century.
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Allan. I will Google "Spanish adriga", and see what I can learn. Can we assume that those are Spanish troops in the painting? Or was its use more wide spread? Are theses the troops of Charles V?

Edit: I can't find anything in Google. Maybe the spelling is off?

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry, adaga, adarga or adargue. Of Islamic origin the name is derived from el-darakah. Made from leather or wood covered in leather ( the few exanples i've seen were usually leather).
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Bruce Willis





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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Allan, How are you. Bruce Willis here

The adarga was used by Spanish colonial troops up until the end of the 18th Century in the Americas. I have a friend that does this impression and he actually made one.

Rodrigo
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Bruce,

I've mulled over making one as I find them interesting but with all that always seems to be on the plate have never had the time. I believe the Spanish in the Americas also retained the buff much longer that in Europe,w well into the 18th century as well I think.
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Bruce Willis





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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Indeed up to the turn of the Century. We have an example at the San Juan Capistrano mission here in Orange County. It was dug up 50 years ago. SJC was garrisoned by Spanish troops until the handover to Mexico. It was found with other items dated around 1800. Yea, our practitioneers of peace friends made a good items. Moorish spurs were used well into the early 19th Century and evolved into the Mexcian spur.

Goodness, I love history!!!!!!

An adarga would go very well with the Casquetelle you sold me for my Conquistador impression.


Rodrigo
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do we have any late period images of these shields? What is the source of this information? Thanks.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2008 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pictures of the adarga from the later periods? Easy. Google up "presidial lancer" or "soldados de cuera" and you'll come up with pages like these:

http://www.militarymuseum.org/soldados.html

http://www.geocities.com/chavesdetachick/

http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/h...cuera.html

http://www.sbthp.org/soldados/StBarbara/Uniforms.htm
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