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Gerald Fa.





Joined: 29 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2008 11:05 pm    Post subject: Replica Armor         Reply with quote

Is Windlass Armor battle ready?

I have a Gothic Plate armor made by Windlass craft and it seems very good! And it looks very cool!

And who makes the best armor? Or just good combat armor…


Can any one tell me any information?
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,272

PostPosted: Tue 07 Oct, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ave!

Looks like you might have scared everyone with this one--your questions may be far more complicated than you realize! For starters, when you ask who makes the "best armor", we need to know a little more about what you intend to use it for: historical reenacting/living history, combat with steel weapons, SCA combat, LARP combat, home display, etc. Different armorers are often better for different applications. That said, Robert MacPherson is generally held up as one of the top armorers in the custom business, though he's certainly not the only one.

I don't know enough about the details of Gothic armor, nor have I seen the Windlass suit up close, but from what I've heard it's not really very accurate. The workmanship won't be as good as any decent custom work, either. That's why it's vastly cheaper, though! Again, how "battle worthy" any Windlass product may be will depend a lot on what form of combat you plan to participate in.

You might get more answers over at the Armour Archive,

http://www.armourarchive.org

Dig around and play with the search function, your answers might already be there.

Good luck!

Matthew
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Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Tue 07 Oct, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some parts of that armor are terrible, others are outstanding for the price (sallet) and yet others can be made to be very good regardless of the price with very minor modifications (e.g. couters). All requrie some modification to achieve historical accuracy and functionality (the sallet has no visor catch and won't stay up, for example).

Some pieces, like the breastplate and backplate, can be made to be pretty good with some fairly extensive modifications.

As for how functional it is, most of it is on the thin side (but still within acceptable historical extremes), but really it's hit or miss. The gauntlets, for example, as said to have terrible articulation, but that's really the only thing wrong with them, and they may vary from one pair to the next.

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Gerald Fa.





Joined: 29 Aug 2008
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Posts: 57

PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Ave!

Looks like you might have scared everyone with this one--your questions may be far more complicated than you realize! For starters, when you ask who makes the "best armor", we need to know a little more about what you intend to use it for: historical reenacting/living history, combat with steel weapons, SCA combat, LARP combat, home display, etc. Different armorers are often better for different applications. That said, Robert MacPherson is generally held up as one of the top armorers in the custom business, though he's certainly not the only one.

I don't know enough about the details of Gothic armor, nor have I seen the Windlass suit up close, but from what I've heard it's not really very accurate. The workmanship won't be as good as any decent custom work, either. That's why it's vastly cheaper, though! Again, how "battle worthy" any Windlass product may be will depend a lot on what form of combat you plan to participate in.

You might get more answers over at the Armour Archive,

http://www.armourarchive.org

Dig around and play with the search function, your answers might already be there.

Good luck!

Matthew


What you heard is not really very accurate? Well I look at the German Gothic front and back plates; they look very, very, very accurate… I have books about Arms & armors.

Thanks for the link Happy Happy Happy


Michael Edelson wrote:
Some parts of that armor are terrible, others are outstanding for the price (sallet) and yet others can be made to be very good regardless of the price with very minor modifications (e.g. couters). All requrie some modification to achieve historical accuracy and functionality (the sallet has no visor catch and won't stay up, for example).

Some pieces, like the breastplate and backplate, can be made to be pretty good with some fairly extensive modifications.

As for how functional it is, most of it is on the thin side (but still within acceptable historical extremes), but really it's hit or miss. The gauntlets, for example, as said to have terrible articulation, but that's really the only thing wrong with them, and they may vary from one pair to the next.



Well it seems that people misunderstood what I said about my Gothic plate. I do not have a full suit of armor yet; but I am getting it part by part. What I have is 2 Sallets, arms armor, getting my legs, and getting my Gothic Gauntlets very soon.

I was just wondering my Gothic plate could be used for combat with steel weapons. (I am not going to do that any time soon) I just like having things that not just look good; but are useable as well. If this armor is not for combat, I will still keep it; it look too cool!


Here is a picture of what I got:

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/a.../9-313.JPG
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Oct, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gerald Fa. wrote:
What you heard is not really very accurate? Well I look at the German Gothic front and back plates; they look very, very, very accurate…


Not quite. The cuirass in the By-the-Sword picture looks a bit clumsy even to my inexperienced eyes...
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Gerald Fa.





Joined: 29 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Gerald Fa. wrote:
What you heard is not really very accurate? Well I look at the German Gothic front and back plates; they look very, very, very accurate…


Not quite. The cuirass in the By-the-Sword picture looks a bit clumsy even to my inexperienced eyes...


Well it seems good, I had put it on ones. It has a lot of room in side; I think for the Gambeson or Buff coat; but I do not have them...

But here are bettor pics.

http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c743a.jpg

http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c743.jpg
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is more to getting just the basic shape of the armour. The quality of finish and the curves is just as important. The breastplate you've shown doesn't have the elegant curves that it should. Also the skirts and breastplate do not meet where they should, with the back skirt being too wide and the front not being shaped enough.

The attached photo is Arne Coets and his harness made by Jeff Hedgecock. Jeff makes really nice armour, and is probably the best armourer working in America. See if you can see the difference in the lines and finish.



 Attachment: 63.56 KB
Arne1.jpg
Arne in his Italian Gothic export harness.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac Evans wrote:
There is more to getting just the basic shape of the armour. The quality of finish and the curves is just as important. The breastplate you've shown doesn't have the elegant curves that it should. Also the skirts and breastplate do not meet where they should, with the back skirt being too wide and the front not being shaped enough.


Just a side note: German gothic armour was known for its angles; it wasn't curvy like an Italian suit of the same time.

Happy

ChadA

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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You will find that its still curved. Nothing is flat:

http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Imag...D%2008.jpg

http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Imag...D%2024.jpg

This is an example of armour made by Will West (English Plate Armourie). Its not as rounded as the Italian style, but the curves actually are what makes it effective armour. Any architect will tell you that arches and domes are great load bearing structures, so the same applies for armour. Because of this every plane should be curved. The example shown just doesn't look right, even for "German" armour.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac Evans wrote:
You will find that its still curved. Nothing is flat:

http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Imag...D%2008.jpg

http://www.englyshe-plate-armourie.co.uk/Imag...D%2024.jpg

This is an example of armour made by Will West (English Plate Armourie). Its not as rounded as the Italian style, but the curves actually are what makes it effective armour. Any architect will tell you that arches and domes are great load bearing structures, so the same applies for armour. Because of this every plane should be curved. The example shown just doesn't look right, even for "German" armour.


True. Of course there are curves. Humans aren't shaped otherwise. Happy

I suppose I should have said Italian gothic armour is generally more curvy than German gothic armour. Is that better? Happy

I'm not saying the MRL German gothic armour is good. I'm sure it's nowhere near a great example of German gothic armour. But it would perhaps be better to show antique German gothic armour for comparison purposes than reproduction Italian gothic armour. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sun 12 Oct, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed. In fact the armour shown is more like the italian gothic armour than the german gothic armour, as the waist is much more pronounced on german gothic harnesses, unlike the reproduction shown.

As for showing extant examples, I find that difficult, as there are very few still available, and most that remain are pieced together. However, reproductions can show harnesses from artworks or complete harnesses copied from extant examples, but remaining in the right style. For example, the Avant harness while often shown as an example armour is still incomplete, and some parts are actually 50 years out of date with the rest of the harness.
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