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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Sun 03 Aug, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Period Rivets (550-790 AD)         Reply with quote

I was wondering what Vendel Era rivets were like. Are they just like a pin that gets hammered flat on the ends? Any info would be great. Thanks. Laughing Out Loud
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Tue 05 Aug, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Or I guess the better question would be, how can I easily make rivets for a helmet of the period?
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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Tue 05 Aug, 2008 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ummmm, I hate to say it but it kinda depends. Could you be a tad more specific as to what it is you are trying to rivet? I know you're working on a helm, but even on the same helm different sized and even styled rivets could be used, depending on whether it was a structural component or decorative pressblech. And even then there can be differences - most rivets seem to be flat headed and relatively flush, but the Ultuna helm uses massive domed headed rivets on the "woven basket" infill. Do you have a copy of Tweddle's book on the Coppergate Helm? That's a good place to start.
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Tue 05 Aug, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C. Gadda wrote:
Ummmm, I hate to say it but it kinda depends. Could you be a tad more specific as to what it is you are trying to rivet? I know you're working on a helm, but even on the same helm different sized and even styled rivets could be used, depending on whether it was a structural component or decorative pressblech. And even then there can be differences - most rivets seem to be flat headed and relatively flush, but the Ultuna helm uses massive domed headed rivets on the "woven basket" infill. Do you have a copy of Tweddle's book on the Coppergate Helm? That's a good place to start.

I've made some rough eyebrows and a crest (almost) out of brass. I'm not going to be adding any pressbleches any time soon (maybe never), but it's still just decorative work. The eyebrows are pretty heavy though, and the animal head finials at the ends of the crest will be too once I finish them. The Gjermundbu-ish helm underneath is already assembled and I'm just going to drill and rivet these pieces and put em on. Laughing Out Loud Not very period-true methods, but since I don't have a rivet gun I thought I might as well put period rivets on there while I was at it. And unfortunately I don't own that book you mentioned. Sounds like I should look into it though Laughing Out Loud
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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Tue 05 Aug, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rivet guns are an abomination on any period armouring work....

If you can have only one book on the subject, you really need to get ahold of Tweedle's book. Unfortunately, it is long out of print - my searches on Bookfinder and Amazon turned up nothing, apart from a short booklet that covers only that particular helm. The book you really need is "The Anglian Helmet from Coppergate." The only possibility I can recommend is an inter library loan.

Though not as complete as I'd like, it gives alot of insight into the basic construction details for a wide range of contemporary helms. I wish I'd had this book before building my first helms...

For riveting brass/bronze eyebrows and the like, I use 14 gauge brass escutcheon pins (you may or may not find those easy to find; up until recently I was able I could get them at OSH, but the supply may have dried up. They were made by the Tower Mfg. Co. in Madison, Indiana, 47250). 16 gauge pins will work, but the 14 gauge is heavier and more appropriate. This is reasonably close to period, I believe.

As for the frame of the helm, 1/8" flat head rivets are probably the best choice. Note that one can use regular nails with a 1/8" diameter. Be sure to remove any galvinisation with vinegar before annealing them! (Heavy metal poisoning is NOT cool...). Of course, tinner's rivets of that diameter can be used, as well, if they can be found. Note that I used to use 3/16" rivets - while these work, they seem to be heavier than what was used in period, near as I can determine.

In a pinch, you can make your own rivets, but that is a pain.
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Wed 06 Aug, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C. Gadda wrote:
Rivet guns are an abomination on any period armouring work....

If you can have only one book on the subject, you really need to get ahold of Tweedle's book. Unfortunately, it is long out of print - my searches on Bookfinder and Amazon turned up nothing, apart from a short booklet that covers only that particular helm. The book you really need is "The Anglian Helmet from Coppergate." The only possibility I can recommend is an inter library loan.

Though not as complete as I'd like, it gives alot of insight into the basic construction details for a wide range of contemporary helms. I wish I'd had this book before building my first helms...

For riveting brass/bronze eyebrows and the like, I use 14 gauge brass escutcheon pins (you may or may not find those easy to find; up until recently I was able I could get them at OSH, but the supply may have dried up. They were made by the Tower Mfg. Co. in Madison, Indiana, 47250). 16 gauge pins will work, but the 14 gauge is heavier and more appropriate. This is reasonably close to period, I believe.

As for the frame of the helm, 1/8" flat head rivets are probably the best choice. Note that one can use regular nails with a 1/8" diameter. Be sure to remove any galvinisation with vinegar before annealing them! (Heavy metal poisoning is NOT cool...). Of course, tinner's rivets of that diameter can be used, as well, if they can be found. Note that I used to use 3/16" rivets - while these work, they seem to be heavier than what was used in period, near as I can determine.

In a pinch, you can make your own rivets, but that is a pain.

Thanks for the info. You've helped me out alot with the crest info over on Anders' topic, and this too is a BIG help. I'll check around for the types of pins you recommend, but since my father is a log home maker, I may just use free extra nails. I'll have to see what he has. Thanks again for all your help. Happy
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C. Gadda





Joined: 20 Aug 2007

Posts: 135

PostPosted: Wed 06 Aug, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Out of curiousity, what sources are you using to guide your reproduction? Depending on what you have I might be able to recommend a few more accesible ones. For example, in my earlier posts I mentioned a book by Dominic Tweddle. He has a smaller booklet, as well, that can be had for perhaps a dozen dollars or so. Even though it is not nearly as informative as the main work, it is (as I review it right now) a pretty good an concise summary of the Coppergate helm. Since many of the construction basics are similar, you might find it useful (granted that the Gjermundbu helm had a pretty radical construction design). Also, there is a new book by Sonja Marzinzik called "The Sutton Hoo Helmet" which is part of the British Museum's "Objects in Focus" series, that has a lot of good info on that helm. I can probably dig up others, so let me know.
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Myles Mulkey





Joined: 31 Jul 2008

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 07 Aug, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

C. Gadda wrote:
Out of curiousity, what sources are you using to guide your reproduction? Depending on what you have I might be able to recommend a few more accesible ones. For example, in my earlier posts I mentioned a book by Dominic Tweddle. He has a smaller booklet, as well, that can be had for perhaps a dozen dollars or so. Even though it is not nearly as informative as the main work, it is (as I review it right now) a pretty good an concise summary of the Coppergate helm. Since many of the construction basics are similar, you might find it useful (granted that the Gjermundbu helm had a pretty radical construction design). Also, there is a new book by Sonja Marzinzik called "The Sutton Hoo Helmet" which is part of the British Museum's "Objects in Focus" series, that has a lot of good info on that helm. I can probably dig up others, so let me know.

I don't have any books on the subject, unfortunately. I've just been basing my research on what I can find online. And once I head back to the university in a few days, I should have access to all kinds of good stuff (we have a great library). But I think I'll check out the Sutton Hoo book you mentioned. Thanks again for your help. I might upload pics when I finish, and I think for a first project that it's going pretty well so far (if not a little rudimentary). Peace.
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Russ Thomas
Industry Professional



Location: Telemark, Norway
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Reading list: 43 books

Posts: 323

PostPosted: Thu 07 Aug, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unfortunately the book by Dominic Tweddle, 'The Anglian Helmet from Coppergate' is just about impossible to obtain these days. Sad A pity, it is a very good book.
Here are a couple of pictures of Swedish helmets from the Vendel culture though......

Hope that they help.

Regards,

Russ



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Anglian_p1112.jpg


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Anglian_p1117c.jpg


Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !


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