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A. Jake Storey II




Location: USA
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject: Unarmed         Reply with quote

I know that there was unarmed combat systems in Europe, but I was wondering where I could find more info on it. I know it's probably going to be part of a sword manual, I'm just wanting too know which ones too look for.
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Max von Bargen




Location: Stanford, CA
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Reading list: 10 books

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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure the Codex Wallerstein (sp?) has a section on unarmed combat. Talhoffer's 1467 Fechtbuch does as well. I'm sure there are more, but those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head.

Max
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Jonathan Eells





Joined: 09 Dec 2007

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Aquilitas.tv         Reply with quote

I've got the "Wrestling for Squires and Pages" DVD from Aquilitas.tv and it's really quite good. Give them a look.
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Bill Grandy
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Location: Alexandria, VA USA
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Unarmed         Reply with quote

A. Jake Storey II wrote:
I know that there was unarmed combat systems in Europe, but I was wondering where I could find more info on it. I know it's probably going to be part of a sword manual, I'm just wanting too know which ones too look for.


Many, if not most, of the medieval fencing treatises deal with unarmed combat to some extent or another. The vast majority of the techniques are based on a grappling system, focusing on arm locks, holds, and throws, very similar to arts such as jujutsu or aikido. Books that are on the market which have this are Medieval Combat by Mark Rector (a translation of one of Hans Talhoffer's treatises), In Service of the Duke by Christian Tobler (a translation of the Paulus Kal treatise), and Arte Gladiatoria by Greg Mele and Luca Porzio (a translation of the Filipo Vadi treatise).

Here's something to start you out on:
http://flaez.ch/talhoffer/teil3.html

The above link is to the 1459 treatise by Hans Talhoffer, showing several illustrations of the art of Ringen.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Bill Grandy
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myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Aquilitas.tv         Reply with quote

Jonathan Eells wrote:
I've got the "Wrestling for Squires and Pages" DVD from Aquilitas.tv and it's really quite good. Give them a look.


Hi Jonathan,
I haven't seen that one. Do you know if it is actually based on medieval techniques? I ask, because Aquilitas has another one called Leibringen: An Introduction to Medieval Wrestling. While that DVD shows some excellent martial arts, it unfortunately does not seem to be based on any historical combat system (other than the fact that some techniques are universal no matter what). It seems to be some sort of modern wrestling while wearing medieval-esque clothing.

Speaking of DVDs, I've heard very good things about this DVD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM

Though I have not yet seen it myself.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a book I've written on medieval grappling and dagger combat out of armor (I wrote another one on grappling and dagger in armor, but I assume you're not looking for that):

http://www.lulu.com/content/2077141

You can download an excerpt of the book relating to a special subset of grappling techniques called the "Three Wrestlings" here:

http://therionarms.com/articles/index.shtml

This material is taken from Talhoffer, Ringeck (well, Ringeck's book--it's probably Ott and others), von Danzig, Codex Wallerstein, and other sources.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Mick Czerep




Location: Poland
Joined: 30 May 2007

Posts: 59

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jun, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wholeheartedly recommend DVD Bill Grandy linked a clip of. The group is absolutely top notch, their hard work, research and martial expertise are second to none.
Sordes ocurrit
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Christopher H





Joined: 06 Mar 2008

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jun, 2008 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As implied earlier, many of the dagger techniques apply well to unarmed... I am constantly excited about seeing things in the western manuals I have seen in eastern martial arts!
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J F. McBrayer





Joined: 07 Oct 2006

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jun, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fiore dei Liberi 1409, Wrestling & Dagger/ Ringen & Dolch, by Colin Richards, is a very good book on exactly what the title says. You can see more at the Arts of Mars Books website.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 427

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jun, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll second Fiore dei Lieberi. He chooses to start teaching his knightly combat style with unarmed combat, moving through sidearms (dagger, longsword) to armoured combat with battlefield weapons (longsword, spear, pollaxe). You can find versions of his treatise online (a group called the Exiles has one, and AEMMA another).

Edit: See here http://www.the-exiles.org/FioreProject/Project.htm
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Jonathan Eells





Joined: 09 Dec 2007

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jun, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Aquilitas definitely thinks so         Reply with quote

I'm pretty well trained in the grappling bits and other forms of wrestling, fighting, and unarmed combat, and the Aquilitas.tv disc about Squires and Pages definitely smacks of genuine medieval European fighting. There's nothing in it that looks like farted up Judo or Greco-Roman in forest green breeches.
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J F. McBrayer





Joined: 07 Oct 2006

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 06 Jun, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
I'll second Fiore dei Liberi. He chooses to start teaching his knightly combat style with unarmed combat, moving through sidearms (dagger, longsword) to armoured combat with battlefield weapons (longsword, spear, pollaxe). You can find versions of his treatise online (a group called the Exiles has one, and AEMMA another).

Edit: See here http://www.the-exiles.org/FioreProject/Project.htm


The Exiles' Fiore Project is an excellent resource, and they deserve tremendous wuffie for posting it.

The advantage of Colin Richards' book is that he takes the Getty wrestling and dagger sections, and expands each image/caption out into a two page spread that walks through the whole technique.
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