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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
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Posts: 134

PostPosted: Sun 11 May, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Is this a Spadroon?         Reply with quote

Hello to one and all,

What kind of sword is this (the one on the right of the picture), is it a spadroon or another type? I found it in a museum nearby my home and going to try to find out more about it!



thanks,

Colin

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Christopher Gregg




Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
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Posts: 665

PostPosted: Sun 11 May, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Colin,

I assume you're inquiring about the sword below the basket hilted sword? It looks like one of the early 17th century broadswords used during the English Civil War. It would make sense, particularly if you consider the basket hilted sword it is displayed with is also an early to mid 17th century English style. Check Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" for several similar examples of both swords. Happy

Christopher Gregg

'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Sun 11 May, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Gregg wrote:
Colin,

I assume you're inquiring about the sword below the basket hilted sword? It looks like one of the early 17th century broadswords used during the English Civil War. It would make sense, particularly if you consider the basket hilted sword it is displayed with is also an early to mid 17th century English style. Check Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" for several similar examples of both swords. Happy


Right, that's a bit earlier than I thought it was (I was aiming at in and around the early 1700's), but with no real literature to help me, my estimation was just a guess. I will be able to handle and measure the swords this coming Tuesday at the museum and will be doing a further study into both swords, as well as two English Civil War era basket hilted swords (mortuary type) and one sword blade blank from the same era which was found under a floorboard at the museum (which is an old stately home with parts dating from the late 1100's).

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 629

PostPosted: Sun 11 May, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isn't that a so called walloon hilt sword? I'm no expert but it looks similar to walloon swords I've seen before.
The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Sun 11 May, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anders Backlund wrote:
Isn't that a so called walloon hilt sword? I'm no expert but it looks similar to walloon swords I've seen before.


Ohh, after a quick internet search you might well be right and it is definitely earlier than I suspected. 1650-80.

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Russ Thomas
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Location: Telemark, Norway
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Mon 12 May, 2008 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

I would go for it being a mid 17th century cavalry broadsword. English, or possibly German?

Russ

Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero !


http://www.living-history.no
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E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional



Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 437

PostPosted: Mon 12 May, 2008 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think Russ is right, but we'll have to wait for a description of the blade, as hilts of this style had broad and backsword blades fitted, along with rapier-type blades. I'd like to see the pommel; if the knucklebow attaches with a screw, the sword could be ca.1650. If it hooks into a hole in the pommel, it's probably from the later 1600s.

I'd also like a look at the pommel of the baskethilted sword, as from what I can see of the hilt it looks like an English military basket from the early-mid 1700s.

--ElJay
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Mon 12 May, 2008 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I am going to try and make this as detailed as I can. This is the first time I will have studied swords in such detail so I'll try my best. I don't have any really great apparatus bar some calipers and scales. I'm going to to take some detailed photos so I'll get as many angles covered as I can.
Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Jim McDougall




Location: U.S.
Joined: 05 Apr 2004

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon 12 May, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are great swords posted by Colin, and it must be fantastic to be able to examine examples like these with such provenance. I agree with the observations made by Russ and Eljay on both swords and look forward to more in the discussion.

I would like to add some notes on terminology , which in studying weapons often plays havoc in trying to accurately describe them. In many cases terms are latter collectors applications, many from Victorian times, while many are period colloquialisms.

The 'walloon' term actually refers to a hilt form, while the spadroon term refers to a blade type, deriving further from a fencing terminology.

The walloon hilt was similar to the hilt shown with pierced recessed bilobate counterguard, and associated with the low countries in N.Europe, probably from the Walloon people and language of S. to SE Belgium and adjacent parts of France. The guard itself was actually more heart shaped, while the German forms more bilobate and later, with the 'walloons' having apppeared earlier 17th c. in regions noted. With the well known activity in sword production in these times between Germany and England, it is not surprising to see the similarities in the hilt forms.

The 'spadroon' term referred to primarily German cut and thrust and light rapier termed spadone, spadrone, spadroon of 18th c. and the cut and thrust combinations , while the English application seems to apply most notably to a particular fencing guard which was considered the weakest in situation. The English perception also focused on use of the backsword, that is the single edged blade for cut and thrust.

The term became most familiarly applied to the straight single edged blade officers sabres of the late 1780's that are recognizable most often with from 3-5 ball decoration on the knucklebow and crossguard. The hilt itself reflects the neoclassicism of the period, with the spadroon term most likely reflecting fencing terminology and the fashion of the officers. Military officers of the time were of course well established gentry, and with the attention to fashion in uniforms and clearly lofty classical allusions it seems that the spadroon term was strategically chosen.

While these notes may or may not be considered relevant to the discussion itself, I just found looking further into the terminology interesting, and wanted to share what I found.

All best regards,
Jim
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Tue 13 May, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Took the measurements today and got to handle both swords a bit. The Walloon (or whatever it may be classed as) is an utterly gorgeous sword. It is an absolute lightsabre and weighs nothing in the hand. The Basket hilt is also rather nice, feels like a very good cutter!

Will write up a full report on both in the next few days and they will have all the detailed measurements and bits and bobs in them, including a fair few photos.

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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