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Dariusz Dario T. W




Location: obamaland
Joined: 17 Feb 2007

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Spanish pike of the 30 years war         Reply with quote

Hello good gents
I got this question: how long - in metters, cm, inches etc - was the Spanish tercio pike?
My friend found this document where one pike is compared with a Spanish one, since we do not know how long the Spanish might have been therefore I am asking you this seemingly simple question.
thanks
Dario
ps
also what might be the meaning behind this sword description in the context of XVII century Spain : una espada hancha (broadsword) de cinco de dos... de filo muy cortante (of a very sharp edge)?

"veni, vidi, Deus vincit"
Jan Sobieski, Rex Poloniae et Dux Lithuaniae

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Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Per your question of the length of a Spanish pike, the below website addresses this:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

One of the sources quoted states 5.2 meters, another 5.46 meters. I would doubt that they were totally uniform at all times, so both are probably correct.

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
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Dariusz Dario T. W




Location: obamaland
Joined: 17 Feb 2007

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
Per your question of the length of a Spanish pike, the below website addresses this:

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/TercioUK.html

One of the sources quoted states 5.2 meters, another 5.46 meters. I would doubt that they were totally uniform at all times, so both are probably correct.

Cheers!

Gordon

hello Gordon,
thanks, I forgot about that website - I took a look at it and the Spanish text is a bit different and I found out about the source of this information - Albi de la Cuesta, De Pavía a Rocroi. Los tercios de infantería española en los siglos XVI y XVII, Madrid 1999 .

http://www.geocities.com/es1617/armamentos.html
/La Pica:
La pica tenía una dimensión de *25* a *27 *palmas de mano (1 palma de mano =* 21* cm), es decir entre 5,0 y 5,4 metros de longitud, con de un lado una punta de hierro de *25* cm mantenida por una barra de metal y del otro un contrapesso de hierro. Las picas estaban hechas de madera dura como el fresno.

so it appears that the Spanish pike as 5,5-5,92m becasue 5,25(21cm x25=5,25m)--5,67(21cm x27=5,67m)
the shaft plus 25cm for the point.
I would say quite long and longer than the Swedish or English ones at that time Happy

I guess we have solved the problem of the pike's length Happy

"veni, vidi, Deus vincit"
Jan Sobieski, Rex Poloniae et Dux Lithuaniae

http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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Curt Cummins




Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 03 May 2007

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb, 2008 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Una espada ancha de cinco dedos de filo muy cortante

A sword five fingers wide and very cutting edge.

Ye braggarts and awe be a'skeered and awa, frae Brandoch Daha
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Curt Cummins




Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 03 May 2007

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I read this to mean the pike had an overall dimension of 5 to 5.4 meters which included a 25 centimeter iron head (hierro)
and and iron counterweight on the butt. (contra peso). The Spanish word for shaft is (eje) and he uses the word pica which I interpret as including the head and counterweight. The shafts were made of hardwood like ash (fresno).

Ye braggarts and awe be a'skeered and awa, frae Brandoch Daha
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Dariusz Dario T. W




Location: obamaland
Joined: 17 Feb 2007

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Curt Cummins wrote:
Una espada ancha de cinco dedos de filo muy cortante

A sword five fingers wide and very cutting edge.

hey Curt,
thanks! I forgot to put 'de dos' together Happy - so then this 5 dedos muy cortante espada is a palash or a broadsword..

how about this one:
'una lanza fuerte de nervio' ? any guess what fuerte de nervio migh menat - this is from a 17th century letter describing a cavalry lance and other armament of a Polish winged hussar .

...my friend , Radek Sikora, has written a new book on the Polish winged hussar actual (sources, relations, manuscripts, poems, paintings) battle tactics and performance - unfortunately there is no plan for an English translation - question of money I guess, the book is some 250 pages strong Happy
He tackles the Swedish wars, Muscovite wars, Cossack wars, Tatars and Turks etc, roughly 1600-1702 , from a point of the combat particpation and performance of the 'winged' hussar units/banners.
Your trully illustrating a bit - as per my illustrations etc if you have Ancient warfare magaizne I did 3 plates for the 2007 #4 Sassanian cavalry.

"veni, vidi, Deus vincit"
Jan Sobieski, Rex Poloniae et Dux Lithuaniae

http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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Dariusz Dario T. W




Location: obamaland
Joined: 17 Feb 2007

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Curt Cummins wrote:
I read this to mean the pike had an overall dimension of 5 to 5.4 meters which included a 25 centimeter iron head (hierro)
and and iron counterweight on the butt. (contra peso). The Spanish word for shaft is (eje) and he uses the word pica which I interpret as including the head and counterweight. The shafts were made of hardwood like ash (fresno).


my question is why you are reading the dimenssions as 5meters -5,4 m when clearly 21cm X 25 palms = 5,25 m and 21cm X 27 = 5,67m,
From what i read of the sources offered by Mr Pierre PICOUET pikes were of various length, the ones held by the front ranks longer that the ones from the rear ranks

another aet of dimmensions from sources offeedd by mr Pierre PICOUET:
Londoño, Discurso sobre la forma de reducir la Disciplina Militar a mejor y antiguo estado, p14:
[...] la pica [..] tiene 26 palmos de vara española, [..] a 15 de la punta, y 11 del cuento, [..]de circunferencia medio palmo,
[..]la punta donde se asienta el hierro, tenga la décima parte de todo el palmo

so here a Spanish pike is 26 palms long plus, I think, 15 (inches?) de point and 11(inches?) de counterweight, mostly half-palm in circumference ad one tenth of that circumference at the iron head.

Wonder now how long in centimeters are those numbers - 15 de la punta and 11del cuneto

"veni, vidi, Deus vincit"
Jan Sobieski, Rex Poloniae et Dux Lithuaniae

http://dariocaballeros.blogspot.com/
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Curt Cummins




Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 03 May 2007

Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri 29 Feb, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.geocities.com/es1617/armamentos.html
/La Pica:
La pica tenía una dimensión de *25* a *27 *palmas de mano (1 palma de mano =* 21* cm), es decir entre 5,0 y 5,4 metros de longitud, con de un lado una punta de hierro de *25* cm mantenida por una barra de metal y del otro un contrapesso de hierro. Las picas estaban hechas de madera dura como el fresno.

I translate this as:

The pike had a dimension of 25 to 27 palms of the hand(1palm of the hand = 21cm), that is to say between 5.0 and 5.4 meters of length, with on one side a point of iron of 25 centimeters held on by a metal bar and on the other an iron counterweight. The pikes were made of of hardwood like ash.


I took the use of the word " pica " to be inclusive - the whole pike not just the shaft. If he had said the palo(stick) or (eje) or (baston)- shaft was of 25 to 27 palms with a head of 25 cm then I would have interpreted it the way you did as a shaft of 5.4 meters + a head of 25 cm.

However in the last sentence, he does use the word pica to refer to the shaft so I could be wrong, as his wording seems a bit ambiguous.

As to "una lanza fuerte de nervio" - I read this as - strong lance of nerve (boldness) - I'll research a little harder to find out if there are other Castillian meanings for this word (nervio). My Spanish is South American ( Argentina and Colombia) and there are significant differences as with English from England, America, Australia etc.

As to the Spanish tercios and their pikes, I am not knowledgeable in that area and bow to your expertise as to their make up.

Curt

Ye braggarts and awe be a'skeered and awa, frae Brandoch Daha
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Stephen Hand




Location: Hobart, Australia
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri 29 Feb, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

5.1-5.4m matches well with the 16-18 feet specified in various English directions for musters. I recall one of the original documents stating that it was important in a push of pike that your opponents not outreach you with longer pikes.

Cheers
Stephen

Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield

Stoccata School of Defence
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