Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Talhoffer 24 Form? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Talhoffer 24 Form?         Reply with quote

Skills like horseriding or martial arts depend for a large part on 'muscle memory'; grinding in neural networks. The end goal is uncounsious capability.

To shoot a bow it helps me to conciously think of mnemonics about Qi Gong and the routine of form+movement which gardually grows into something I do automatically correct..
To ride horse I practice simple taichi and again mnemonics help me with the form and movement of both riding and tai chi to reach automatic competence.
Waving swords Talhoffer offers mnemonics right from the basic guards.

Now if I look on google for taichi yang I get the ground in routines for basic 24 form, sword and spear performed by various experts in surpisingly uniform execution.
Searching on 'Talhoffer' (as an example) one can find stances and actions as in the Talhoffer book but not routines.

I understand there is a basic difference in approach between the tow examples I choose, taichi and Talhoffer (who's from+movement aims to end in a death so per defenition at ending sequences), but in the present day it is all play.
Would it not greatly assist us to get to grips with the form+movement of western martial arts if we could practice the already for a large part mnemonic techniques into routines?
Would it be possible to 'create' a Talhoffer 24 form?

Look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAe95N3T8q8 or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zOMBbJ3n5E and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxhAjv3YneM
in comparison with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxhAjv3YneM

I do not intend to compair anything. Just observing that it would help ME to get to grips with the 'muscle memory' to formalise techniques from Talhoffer.
Well, and maybe it existed once. I do not claim to understand the verses of Lichtenauer even though I can read the language.
As far as I am aware it does not exist today and I feel that it would help present day practitioners and would get western martial arts more accessible.

peter
View user's profile
Vaclav Homan




Location: Hradec, Czech
Joined: 22 Jan 2008

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 4:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting idea and nice vidos. Nice movement and some moment are good to imitate (execute of steps, body in one line no as peak, depress of poise, film in change of movement.......), its ground for fight movement.
I mean there are problems:
1 in europe was different concept education, it is individuals verbals (you are wrong!! your leg going first as your sword blade, you are woody! your pelvic donīt work,you want owerlive? If your dancing as wagtail....). In Asia is normal follow master and repeat movement. Each methods are good, but the way of teaching is different.

2 Asian make synthetic teaching, european analytic teaching. Asian make take up again motion. European mean as film strip: we have shift, old shift, new shift (barock, sport fencing) forestep and your turnstile alternative, fight step (changing guard), assaults to all points of all legs for attack and moving (medieval renaisance was spatial fight, barock fencing come with line fight) etc. Pushing cut draft cut and other three ground cut conducting.Schelter (farme ?) offensive, turnstile, venial. There are many things (with using wearpons, in some periods) . I mean this is chess. We are taught briliant details than combination detail. If you have good fluent movement in place and cutting you must learn sinchronization all. Asian have for example lions attack (fantasy :-) , you teach all with movement cut shelds. But in europa was: 1)cut step 1)preventiv schelter (key) 3) cut form side 4) step out weaiting or finish. Or patinando (shift thrustout and assault). But in europe was teaching methods: dance. It was some prehistorick methods (documentary in medievale and prehistoric time).

3 In Europe was master individual anyone have had his methods and nobody can present its mystery (as in japanese masterschool). Fechtbuecher, Manuscript, Renaisance book (Lichtenauer Talhoffer, Mayr, Meyer, Capoferro, .......) was open tract, or put in remember for students (alumnus, graduetet). There are generalities. Situation as Craftsman secred.

I like asian teaching methods but 24 steps form of talhoffer may teach only Herr Talhoffer (knows somebody what time he died?), but teach bases of fencing is possible. You have good idea and you must make it :-)
Those who are competent fot it have not concern (Master must have secred and pupils).

There is only one art of fence yet many ways to reach it
View user's profile Send private message
Alex Oster




Location: Washington and Yokohama
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Posts: 410

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll agree that it would be nice to see it all in form like that. i have seen people who can do routine fast and with a partner, but never slow and solitary. Maybe even a video showing it slower would be useful. The full speed is nice to see, but not very helpful.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not created forms like that, per say, having no experience in Tai Chi, nor an inclination towards it's motion.

Is something like this prepared? No, not really. It's not presented that way in the manuals I have had the good fortune to look at. You are more often presented with a technique and a counter. However, once you have internalized the work to a certain extent, you start to see where these things logically string together.

I often *do* string together logical attacks, counters, counters to the counters, etc. and work them fairly slowly and singly. I find it's important to do to help you to learn some logical "next steps" in the system as they are presented in the manuals, though it doesn't teach the whole of the art. It does, however, provide for you to be able to ensure that your body positioning at every point is optimal, something that is difficult to do when crossed at the sword, especially when you are first learning.

The thing to remember about Leichtenauer's art is that we are told that we need Fuhlen to properly practice the art, and we can only develop Fuhlen through the crossed blade. In other words, when partnered with a partner who is providing the proper response on the blade. This is, of course, easier said than done.

Jessica
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The way I see it, it (wether Talhoffer or Taichi, horseriding or archery) is about getting all form+movement right AND all transitions, both as a 'muscle memory'.

Knowledge of the techniques, practice in performing, understanding to knit them together, then do is all unconsiously capable.
Through mnemonic ritual a neural network is built efficienlt.

Taichi offers this, I have adapted my horsriding to it, I still hope it exists for 'Talhoffer' (as a label for medieval western martial arts) too.

peter
View user's profile
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jessica Finley wrote:
In other words, when partnered with a partner who is providing the proper response on the blade.


Like in horseriding, partnering is essential to acquier skills, routine. The problem is that you will get to know what your partner knows, not necessarily what you want to know. You will adapt, not necessarily learn the right skills.
It is not either learn the ritual or practice. That is where I think a lot of western teaching is lacking.
'You can only learn by doing'. Not so.
In Wienna the ideal rider was once called 'the thinking rider', who studied about as much as he practiced.

Take the example of shooting a recurve or mounting a horse.
Evrybody can shoot an arrow, everybody can climb on a horse. In both cases it is not at all easy to do right.
You mmust first study what is the right procedure, what are the forms and movement, what is the ritual.
One must be able to practice and perfect the routine in one's head.
Then you must practice your muscles without a bow, without a horse. All the little steps must be like one fluid transition.
You must also train the strengh and flexibility of the body.
With the procedure programmed in your neural network and a body that has no phyiscal limitations to perfom, you can take the bow from the rack or call the horse from the meadow.
NOW you have all your of your mind and capabilities ready for all variables that you WILL encounter.

Learning the basic ritual as you go shooting or riding is putting yourself at an enourmous disadvantage as you WILL teach yourself workarounds and wil always be chasing yourself or be chased by the circumstances.
You will also lack the right sort of confidance: you will not know what you cannot do if you do not know that it exists. That is called unconsiously incompetent. The way from this through consiously incompetent, consiously competent to inconsiously competent is not shown by crossing blades alone Idea

Peter
View user's profile
Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Bosman wrote:
The way from this through consiously incompetent, consiously competent to inconsiously competent is not shown by crossing blades alone Idea

Peter


Indeed, which is why I would never recommend learning a martial art through just bouting, or just partnered drills, or just solo drills alone. It is in doing all of these things (hundreds of times) that you learn the art. They are all important.

But, it is important to do cooperative partnered drills as well as solo drills to begin to learn Fuhlen. Eventually you will apply that learning to antagonistic partnered drills and eventually to bouting. It will all help to teach that aspect of the art.

I was simply cautioning against attempting to fully learn a Medieval German Martial Art through solo drill alone.

I am also a big believer in spending time internalizing the art, meaning that you read the technique and imagine it happening, or once you know the techniques better, simply spend time in your head, working through what should be happening in various situations. But this is simply something I feel has helped me.

As you said, you cannot learn to ride a horse simply from reading about how to do it, or imagining how to do it, or practicing how to do it on a sawhorse. You have to ride the horse. But to not read, not take classes, not imagine, not practice and to just get on a horse and try it... well, let's say I was put in that situation when I was about 15 and the horse walked into his barn and stood there ignoring every single signal I attempted to give it while my family laughed at me. *Grin*

Jess
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,145

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,
Just to clarify: Are you wishing for a solo form for Talhoffer specifically? Or are you wishing for solo forms in western martial arts in general?

If you are looking for forms specifically from Talhoffer, I think you will be disappointed. Talhoffer's manuscripts are not really instructional manuals so much as they are catalogs of broad techniques. They are useful as side information when looking at the main system, but they are not the main system itself. It would be like me attempting to learn Kung Fu by reading Black Belt magazine.

If you are looking for solo forms for WMA in general, then I would say that these do in fact exist, depending on your system. One example I can think of are the Lignitzer sword and buckler plays, found within the von Danzig and Ringeck treatises. They are a series of six plays that can be practiced with or without a partner. Furthermore, as Jessica has already alluded to, you can go through the various plays of a particular system. I don't know any martial artist who doesn't practice plays as a form of solo action in addition to them being partner drills, even if the plays aren't as long as some tai chi forms are. So I think what you are discussing is already alive and well in the WMA world.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I wrote I used 'Talhoffer' as a label on medieval WMA. I find the Talhoffer book I have illustrative as they do show the essence of the filosophy and technogues rather well. It is in our present day age with far more advaced media that I am looking for the fluidity and transitions.
THERE is where EMA are in a different age; the present and WMA appearanty still in the middleages Wink

I assume p.e. from reading on the ARMA site that attention to a continuity in a drill is not a detail in either teaching of training.
Sofar however I have not encountered anything better than the choosen link and I think the mesage this portrays is clear.

I will look up on your suggestion and am keenly awaiting for the first to put this dril in form+movement in an instructive sequence.
I am not skilled enough to get this organised but see it as a definite market. I know of a lot of people who do want to excersize in structured form but are loath of 'kongfu-ist' aura.
WMA is pragmatic but has historically been deliberately kept inaccessible to all outside of the incrowd. Even today a teacher needs pupils BUT..... taichi yang forms are offered so clearly yet nobody will complain about the market potential for taichi teachers.

peter
View user's profile
Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 6:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter -

I have to completely disagree. I live in the middle of the united states in an area where the closest other practitioners at the time I started were a 5-hour drive away. The closest instructor was an 11-hour drive away. However, due to the internet, and my own pursuit of such, I was able to become a student of Christian Tobler's (for perspective, he lives so far away it would take 30 hours to drive to his house). Using his books and his amazing willingness to take me on as a long-distance student, I have been able to learn the art.

This is about as far as you can come from making the art inaccessible to those outside the 'in crowd', whoever that is.

It does take hard work to learn, because there aren't that many people, relatively, learning it. It's not about keeping things secret, if you're wondering why there aren't hundreds of free instructional videos on the net, but rather it's about continuing to learn the art, even for those instructors. There are simply better ways for their time to be spent than putting videos out on the 'net. That includes practice, research, writing, publishing, and instructing.

Every instructor I have met (and by that I mean through the internet) who practices any form of WMA has been nothing but incredibly gracious, willing to instruct those who ask and helpful in every way.

I am sorry you have not found the same.
Jessica
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 702

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Peter,

Have you checked Toblers book "Fighting With The German Longsword"? In it he presents drills that may very well, if done with fluidity and intent, fit what your looking for. My study group does a similar thing with the cuts and thrusts as well. Coming from an Eastern background myself I hear where your coming from, yet just learning the wards and transitioning between them with footwork will also have the effect that your looking for. Hope this helps.

~Mike~
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Mike, yes it does. I will check it out.

The thing is Jessica that where there is a will there is a way. No discussion about it. There can hardly be discussion either about the obvious fact that the taichi way is a LOT more accessible than the WMA way.
Now we get to the bottle neck: my will, commiment to get to grips with WMA is not enough to pave my own way. For me it is in the service of my horseriding.
I have bought p.e. a Talhoffer book because of the plates about mounted combat as an aid to the book by Dom Duarte.
Because I understand that like mounted archery is still archery, mounted Talhoffer is Talhoffer that I want to understand more about it. The way(s) to understanding that I sofar have found are not accessible enough for my commitment.
This was to me a start contrast to tai chi that also is a way to better horseriding.

peter
View user's profile
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,145

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Bosman wrote:
I find the Talhoffer book I have illustrative as they do show the essence of the filosophy and technogues rather well. It is in our present day age with far more advaced media that I am looking for the fluidity and transitions.
THERE is where EMA are in a different age; the present and WMA appearanty still in the middleages Wink


I definately won't argue that WMA is missing several elements because it is no longer a living tradition in the way other martial arts are. Still, I think if you were exposed to more WMA groups you'd find that forms and solo drills are pretty common in the general community.

Quote:
I assume p.e. from reading on the ARMA site that attention to a continuity in a drill is not a detail in either teaching of training.
Sofar however I have not encountered anything better than the choosen link and I think the mesage this portrays is clear.


Well, the internet probably isn't the best place to get a proper judgement of WMA, even if it may be the most accessible. Happy I can't vouch for ARMA, as I'm not a member, nor do I know where it says that on their website. All I know is that you'll find that many groups use continuity in drills, myself included.

Quote:
WMA is pragmatic but has historically been deliberately kept inaccessible to all outside of the incrowd.


No more than Chinese, Japanese, Phillipino, or Korean martial arts have been, historically. Wink I would say that the modern age of WMA is far more sharing, for the most part, than many other art forms. Maybe not everybody, but most of the community has been remarkably willing to share knowledge to promote the arts. Tai Chi may be more accessible, but that has more to do with how common it is than how open it is.

Quote:
I have bought p.e. a Talhoffer book because of the plates about mounted combat as an aid to the book by Dom Duarte.
Because I understand that like mounted archery is still archery, mounted Talhoffer is Talhoffer that I want to understand more about it. The way(s) to understanding that I sofar have found are not accessible enough for my commitment.


It is very good that you have Dom Duarte, which is an excellent resource. Talhoffer, I'm afraid, isn't very helpful by itself. To better understand Talhoffer, I'd recommend reading the mounted combat section of Sigmund Ringeck. You can find it in Christian Tobler's first book, Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship. This will make life much easier for you, in my opinion, as it actually explains the guards, strikes and maneuvers in a way that Talhoffer doesn't (and to be fair, Talhoffer's manuscripts weren't meant to be instruction manuals). After that, Talhoffer will be a better resource, since you'll know from what positions he intended the fighter to start from, and what exactly the images are tring to portray.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,148

PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:

Quote:
WMA is pragmatic but has historically been deliberately kept inaccessible to all outside of the incrowd.


No more than Chinese, Japanese, Phillipino, or Korean martial arts have been, historically. Wink I would say that the modern age of WMA is far more sharing, for the most part, than many other art forms. Maybe not everybody, but most of the community has been remarkably willing to share knowledge to promote the arts. Tai Chi may be more accessible, but that has more to do with how common it is than how open it is.



In period anywhere/anywhen when the martial art was a life and death situation having secret or so-called secret techniques was probably the norm of many schools or these arts.

Also, if a master's livelihood depended on selling his knowledge to rich or powerful students there would have been a lot of rivalry involved between masters. The rich/noble student of an art would want someone that would give him an " edge " over the common street brawler, peasant or soldier.

Lets, not also forget that a little mystery or having to be initiated into the " club " before being able to learn the really effective secret techniques would also be a good marketing ploy or hype by less qualified instructors ! Add, a little snobbishness/ellitism to the mix and lots of ego and " attitude " and you have many reasons why open communication and exchanges of technical secrets would have been restricted. ( The guild mentallity of the period also having strict rules about who could be told how much about anything in every field of arts, industry or commerce ..... and social position being less mobile than later periods )

Today, people mostly want to learn and understand better how all of this works and exchanging information is much more useful than keeping secrets. Wink Big Grin Humans being humans, pride, jealousy, envy, stubbornness, competitiveness and the occasional inflated egos can make discussions heated at times: As in all things some people's personalities just clash but most can agree to disagree and still have productive and respectful " arguments ".

( Note: Just an observation of discussions going south at times on various Forums, rarely here ! And not meant or aimed at anyone in particular should someone imagine I'm being specific about anyone in particular )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
To better understand Talhoffer, I'd recommend reading the mounted combat section of Sigmund Ringeck. You can find it in Christian Tobler's first book, Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship.


Reading up on this I encountered the two books on Ringeck by David Lindholm.

A rather funny thing is that in about all european languages but english the knight is only a knight if mounted and yet neither of the two Lindholm front covers shows a horse. Hardly any of the books on the fighting of the ritter, ridders, chevalier, cavalieri, cavalheros, caballeros do .....

Thinking about which book to order I will reread the Amadis de Gaul. Not a shred of drill info in there, but this does portray the time, even if highly romantic, as it originates in the 13th.c.
The english translation currently for sale on amazon is VERY readeable, a lot easier than spanish publications.
If you can advise me on the most ' horsy' book I would highly value that.

Btw, I have the Oakeshott book about the knight and his horse, but that is SO utterly .....beep... on just about everything about the horse that I have hidden it from my son Eek!
I can refer anyone interested in the medieval horse to http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Equipment-c-11...amp;sr=1-1 which is the scientific state of the knowledge and accessibly written.

peter
View user's profile
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,145

PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Bosman wrote:
Bill Grandy wrote:
To better understand Talhoffer, I'd recommend reading the mounted combat section of Sigmund Ringeck. You can find it in Christian Tobler's first book, Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship.


Reading up on this I encountered the two books on Ringeck by David Lindholm.

A rather funny thing is that in about all european languages but english the knight is only a knight if mounted and yet neither of the two Lindholm front covers shows a horse. Hardly any of the books on the fighting of the ritter, ridders, chevalier, cavalieri, cavalheros, caballeros do .....


The Lindholm books, while very nicely done, do not contain the rossfechten (combat from horseback) section of Ringeck's treatise. As far as I'm aware, the only place you can find that publically available is through Christian Tobler's book. That was Christian's first book, and is several years old now, so some of the interpretations are a little dated (by his own standards as much as anyone elses), but it still remains a nice translation, with enough interpretation to help you along with understanding the text, and has the section that you're looking for.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Bosman




Location: Andalucia
Joined: 22 May 2006

Posts: 598

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb, 2008 1:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, that is clear language. I will count my savings to see if I can order his collectors replica print as well.

peter
View user's profile
Lee Craven





Joined: 31 Aug 2006

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Might I also suggest "IN SERVICE OF THE DUKE:
The 15th century fighting treatise of Paulus Kal"


http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VI...ProdID=289

Kal has quite a section on mounted combat or Rossfechten.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Talhoffer 24 Form?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum