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Max Maydanik




Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Joined: 29 Apr 2007

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: Help! historicenterprises vs revivalclothing opinions needed         Reply with quote

Hello,
The time has come for me to retire my thick wool gamberson redesignating it as a waister armor only, and get something more appropriate for my full armor setup.

I want a nice linen doublet under $300 with the emphasis on mobility, historical accuracy coming up the second and good looks the third but still all-important.
I am torn between
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m...2&c=44
vs
http://www.revivalclothing.com/index.asp?Page...ProdID=221

Can somebody provide opinions, reviews or comparative analysis..anything really,
to help me stop being a Buridan's ass. Eek!
Oh, and I will need it for live steel combat.

Thanks.
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a review that might help: http://www.myArmoury.com/review_rc_gambeson.html

As to which company is better ? Depends on a lot of things and what your priorities are?

Functionally I have nothing but good to say about revival clothing gambison: I have two of them.

If the Historic Enterprises gambison or products in general are more historically correct or not I'm not qualified to comment and since I don't have personal experience with any of their product I shouldn't give an opinion about which is better on any basis.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They're two totally different things; what period are you emulating?

M.

This space for rent or lease.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb, 2008 11:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do not know if they are totally different though they are seperated by at least 20-30 years fashion wise. You have selected two very good and reputable makers so really as M. has pointed out you may need to tell us what time period you are into. The revival is likely closer to 1400 or the 1st quarter of the 15th and the H E is post 1450.

RPM
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Max Maydanik




Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Joined: 29 Apr 2007

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thank you everyone for the replies. As far as which history period, I want to be consistent with..I would say something closer to the beginning of the 15 century.

However, if the historical enterprise doublet offers better mobility, I would rather prefer to fight in the better designed piece. As one of the posters on another forum noted that "all the historical reconstruction is not worth your balls". I believe there is a certain wisdom in that. As long as I do not look like a goblin from LARP draped in curtains, I would be willing to accept minor anachronisms(1410 vs 1450) in my doublet if i can fight better in it.

However, the question remains open does H E offers more mobility?
One minor thing against H E is that it takes 8 weeks.
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M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If 15th C, go for the doublet.

M.

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Mark Mondragon





Joined: 15 Jun 2006

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have purchased many items from Gwen at HE and the one thing that keeps me coming back is the quality of the garb. I have never purchased from the other vendor, but I will give HE an A+

Another thing to keep in mind, her hubby is the tester for this design and participates in live steel combat, so I'm sure he has had input as to its design.

One question I would have for you, is if you fight SCA? if so, HE arming doublet will most likely not work for you, it was designed for and works great with the historical combat styles... the SCA combat is far to violent and uncontrolled in its movements to be a good match. I know this because I discussed this issue with Gwen some time ago.

Mark-
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Wed 13 Feb, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Max,

The RC gambeson is for a style of garment c. 1380 - 1420, with it's most common depiction being 1390 - 1410. The HE arming doublet is based on designs from 1450 - 1460. The gambeson is padded, the doublet is purely for attaching armour too. Both are excellent garments for their stated purposes, and both have a fine attention to detail, durability and historical accuracy. But they serve different roles.

Greg

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

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Jeffrey Hedgecock
Industry Professional



Location: Ramona CA USA
Joined: 22 Jan 2004

Posts: 129

PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thought I might chime in here since our product and I have been mentioned.

I've never seen the RC Arming Cotte, so the only comments i can make on it are that from the photos the cut appears to be "generally" a little earlier than ours, and they only offer it only in black. It's also interesting to note that their description includes a disclaimer saying it's not warranteed in use, only for costume wear.

Our HE, Inc. Arming Doublet is based on contemporary visual sources (there are no verifiable survivals) of circa 1435-1480. The pattern has undergone a HUGE amount of development and testing over the years, performed by WMA practitioners, jousters, and historical interpreters worldwide, and yes, me too. Our arming doublets are being used in some of the most preeminent arenas for historical activities across the globe and are the culmination of at least 45 years of Gwen's and my combined experience in patternmaking, research, experimentation and development (yes, I sew a bit sometimes too, and my early arming doublet versions sort of laid the groundwork for what we offer now, though Gwen has taken it -miles- further). I have two doublets of the current design, one in red linen and another in a gorgeous brocade velvet Gwen made up special for me. They are incredible. Anyone who knows me can attest that I'm extremely particular with my medieval kit and am very difficult to please, yet these doublets surpass my expectations and more than adequately meet my needs for both design and construction.

The sleeve on the most recent version is frankly, the closest fitting and easiest to move in that I've ever worn. I can move more in the doublet than my harness allows, even with my cuisses pointed to the hem. Remember that correct fit is very important, so it's crucial that you take measurements off your body right before ordering. Ordering utilizing measurement from other clothes you wear is not acceptable-- you must actually measure your body and choose the correct size, or send us your measurements so we can recommend the size best for you.

Our Arming Doublet is not a "gambeson", in that it's not padded at all. It doesn't need to be and shouldn't be if the harness you wear over it fits correctly. It's intended to be a foundation garment for your harness, not to compensate for deficiencies in the fit of your harness. If you're looking for something to wear under mail that offers shock absorbtion, this is not it. Our arming doublet will, however, form a solid and fully functional foundation for an historically accurate 15th century full plate armour harness and is warranteed for defects in materials and workmanship, during reasonable and proper use.

I've jousted and done historical ground and mounted combat in my arming doublets and find they provide fabulous mobility, support for the harness and overall superior performance. Our stitchers construct them as they're ordered and they do a wonderful and conscientious job. We note an 8 week turnaround on our website, but they are often completed quicker. We have yet to see historical evidence for black arming doublets, though we have seen plenty for nearly all other colors, so we don't offer black, and instead offer several alternative color choices.

I hope this gives you a little more to go on, at least about our product, so you can make an informed choice.

Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
Industry Professional



Location: Ramona CA USA
Joined: 22 Jan 2004

Posts: 129

PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My wife and business partner, Gwen, asked me to add her comments:

---------------------------
I have not spoken to Mark Mondragon is some years, as he points out. The arming doublet has undergone at least 2 major revisions since we have spoken, so the comment about not being suitable for SCA combat is no longer applicable.

The arming doublet is perfectly suited for and works fantastically with a mid-late 15th C. plate harness, regardless of the discipline. The only time there is a problem is when the armour is not fitted or shaped properly- as you point out, the garment is not intended to compensate for a deficiency in the armour's fit or function.

At least 4 armourers that I know of recommend my arming coat to all of their customers, as they feel it is the best available at any price.**

The Marxbruder Historical Fightschool in Australia is recommending our arming doublet as the preferred wear for all students.

Because the fit is critical, we offer 16 stock sizes, and will tailor the doublet to the client's measurements, usually at not charge. We also offer the option of 9 colours and 2 fabrics.

The doublet comes standard with a pair of eyelets on each shoulder for pauldrons, three pairs of eyelets near the top of each sleeve for the Arm Harness, and a grid of 18 eyelets on each hip for cuisses. This accommodates an almost infinite variation in harness and body shape, and ensures custom location of the harness pieces for maximum performance.

Thanks-

Gwen

**(JH, Luke, Dave Rylak, Will West. There are probably others.)
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Max Maydanik




Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Joined: 29 Apr 2007

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg,
I think there was a misunderstanding. I was referring to the Revival Clothing's cote which is basically the same type of unpadded jacket with arming points. I already have a very nice gamberson( gambison, gambeson )that was made to my measure, but I found that for when I wear the plate, I need an unpadded garment just as you said.

Gwen and Jeffrey,
Thank you very much for stepping forward and clarifying a few things for me. Presently, I can only judge from the photoes, but as I mentioned in my earlier post H E doublet looks better. I especially like the back cut, that I would wager, allows you to do some minor adjustment in case you gain or lose a couple of pounds.
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m...0&c=25

Quick question, since you are here...how soon do you guys expect to have the riveted voiders back in stock? 3 freeplays ago, the tip of my friend's sword accidentally found a way to my armpit through the slit under the arm of my gamberson. Feeling of the steel lodged in my underarm, separated from my skin with nothing but a thin undershirt left a lasting impression on me and a small bruise.

Laughing Out Loud
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
Industry Professional



Location: Ramona CA USA
Joined: 22 Jan 2004

Posts: 129

PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We should have voiders in about 8 weeks, so check our website around April 15 or maybe a little before.

The back lacing also creates a "girdle" effect, allowing the peplum of the doublet to cinch in about the hips, keeping the weight of the leg harness there rather than transferring the weight up to the shoulders. The upper body section of the doublet is also slightly longer to additionally prevent transfer of the leg harness weight to the shoulders.

This assumes proper size choice, of course.

Cheers!

Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Feb, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't speak for the Historic Enterprises doublet, as I've never seen one up close. All I can say is that I've heard nothing but good things about them.

I have, however, seen and tried on the Revival Clothing doublet. It is a fantastic garment for wear under armour. There was no padding, as it is meant to be worn under plate, so it isn't constricting. It gives great range of movement, and I can easily lift my arms in it without lifting the entire garment. My only complaint is that it only comes in black. Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb, 2008 10:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just recently took advantage of the Revival Clothing "Leap Year" sale (a fun idea) and picked up their arming doublet. I'd gotten to try one on before and knew I'd liked it, and with the 20% off, I couldn't pass it up. Let me start with the cons, since they are actually minute.

Cons:
-The points have plastic on the end like on the end of a shoelace. For me, I don't care about this at all, but if I did living history I'd need to change those.
-It only comes in black.

And those are the only cons so far.

Pros:
-The garment looks and fits fantastic. The cut and design is excellent.
-The linen is quite sturdy.
-I finally have full range of motion while wearing my harness!!! I originally was using a cheap, poorly designed, mass produced "gambeson". The difference is truly night and day: I've fallen in love with my harness all over again. Happy I can move incredibly easily with this arming doublet in a way that was simply impossible before. Its true what they say: armour is only as good as the foundation garments. I may have always known this mentally, but it was still quite a surprise at just how much of a difference it makes. Swinging a poleaxe with this new arming doublet under my harness suddenly felt like twirling a marching band baton.
-The material breathes incredibly well. My old, cheap gambeson had a nylon fiber fill, and I was usually sweating within ten minutes. It is a stark difference just how much cooler the linen is.
-The fit allows much of the armour to rest on the hips rather than the shoulders, which is a huge plus. It literally felt like my armour was suddenly lighter than before.

In all, I'm incredibly happy with this purchase. On a related note, I also picked up a pair of the Revival Clothing ankle boots for the sale, and they are remarkably comfy!

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greeting to all,

Jeffrey pointed out our disclaimer regarding the RC Arming Cotte, but is missing the point. This is the same disclaimer appearing with all our arming wear and it has nothing to do with our standing behind the garment's quality. Rather it is a boilerplate statement regarding possible injuries incurred in martial arts practice and how that responsibility is in the wearer's hands. Given the wide-ranging use of such garments - by SCA combatants, WMA practitioners, and jousters - we can't legally, or responsibly, tell our customers are 'safe' just because they buy our product. You'll find similar disclaimers attached to various pieces of martial arts equipment for many disciplines.

Obviously, as our regular customers know well, we stand behind the quality and durability of our clothing.

He is correct however in pointing out that we went for a look that reflects a little earlier styling than that of their product. Although, in all honesty, with how very little we know about period arming wear (so little iconography, and even less surviving garments), it might be fine for later in the 15th century as well. Certainly, our garment looks similar to those illustrated by Talhoffer in both the Berlin and Konigsegg codices, and those are both from around the middle of the century.

I'll conclude by offering compliments as well to HE on their doublet, which I also own for wear with my late 15th c. harness. Other than some shoulder movement limitations (which I've heard have since been addressed), it's a very finely made and good-looking piece of arming wear.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Bill Tsafa




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One problem that I have with most gambesons is that they lack arming points at the elbow. This is very useful for helping keep elbows up. Shoulder ties seem pretty standard and necessary. I'm not sure what the ones at the waist are for? Leg armor is usually much too heavy to hold up with those thin strings. Most people use a weightbelt and some rope for legs.

I have heard that there are no actual surviving gambesons. There is one small piece that is thought to be a gambeson or possibly a jupont. I think that modern reproductions would be too thin to be effective protection under mail against the percussive effect of sword strikes. I think that a gambeson would have to be about two inches thick and packed very tight to be effective. Perhaps with less thickness around the shoulder and arms. I am guessing that a gambesons were made to peoples individual preference.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
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Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Thu 28 Feb, 2008 9:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Vassilis,

Actually, most guys doing period-correct harness are attaching the legs to arming clothes. I have been for several years now and the comfort and mobility advantages over the belt arrangement are profound.

It's easy enough to add additional arming points for the elbows, provided you're wearing armour designed for that. Most Milanese style elbows are rivet articulated to the rest of the arm harness and so don't point at the elbow. German 'gothic' arms generally do point there.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for your insight Christian. I will be at the Chivalric Weekend, June 14-16. I hope to see first hand how you attach your armor. Happy
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Feb, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:
We should have voiders in about 8 weeks, so check our website around April 15 or maybe a little before.




woo-hooo!!!!!!! can't wait. i desperately need a pair of voiders
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James R.Fox




Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
Joined: 29 Feb 2008

Posts: 253

PostPosted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs-too bad youre going English (Boo English). Our scotts pladies had a good deal going for them under mail, brigandines, etc. Plus real he men, like us scotts, wore skirts,as did Greeks and Romans , and the scotts pladie was the same. Put on a heavy wool or linen shirt, knee length, then take a strip of wool cloth, 2-3 ells wide and 6-7 ells long, and wrap it around the waist and then around the back and over the shoulder. This was held in place by a waist belt ,and shoulder brooches if desired. We did Not wear @#$%^ Kilts! The plaidie not only looked great it was perfect for wet, rainy weather,you just unfolded it and wrapped up in it, plus you could use it as a sleeping bag at night, and you could keep your weapons and any armour you were lucky enough to own dry, Espically your twa-handit swerd or cleadhmore for chopping up English. (did I say boo English?) Happy
Ja68ms
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