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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: The Three Wrestlings of German Grappling         Reply with quote

Hello,

My friend Hal Siegel of Therion Arms has been kind enough to post a paper I've written on a select subset of medieval German grappling techniques and their ancillary techniques on the Articles section of the Therion Arms web page.

The intent of the paper is to show Ott's drei Ringen or Three Wrestlings as a complete self-referential grappling subsystem as an exposition of the system as a whole. While no arms or armor are involved in the practice, I mention it here because of the close relationship between armed and unarmored combat in the middle ages.

I hope the paper will be of interest. It can be found here:

http://www.therionarms.com/articles/index.shtml

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Matthew K. Shea




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That was a great read. As a student of Fiore at the Academy of Medieval Martial Arts in Toronto, it was really neat to see how similar the two systems are. I can easily recognize most of the photos in the article as wrestling plays we practice frequently.
Proud member of the Academy Of European Medieval Martial Arts.

"Those who live by the sword live a good, long time!"
~Minsc, in Baldur's Gate II
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Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 690

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Hugh,

The Three Wrestling aren't attributable to Ott - they're anonymous, a part of the hodge-podge of wrestling that appears in the Ringeck manuscript.

All the best,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Hi Hugh,

The Three Wrestling aren't attributable to Ott - they're anonymous, a part of the hodge-podge of wrestling that appears in the Ringeck manuscript.


Hi Christian,

I thought it was fairly well established, although certainly not proven, that that section of Ringeck's MS came from Ott. Is that incorrect?

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 690

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Hugh,

Most definitely not. The section of the wrestling in Ringeck that begins with "A counter to the bar" corresponds to the 2nd half of Ott as his treatise appears elsewhere, but the Drei Ringen are well before that.

Interestingly, for all their usefulness, Ringeck is the only manuscript where these three techniques appear. One can find analogues to the 1st and 3rd readily in the glosses for the armoured combat. And, really, the 2nd technique is just a hand switch off of the 1st anyway.

All the best,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
Most definitely not. The section of the wrestling in Ringeck that begins with "A counter to the bar" corresponds to the 2nd half of Ott as his treatise appears elsewhere, but the Drei Ringen are well before that.


Thank you, Christian, I had misunderstood that. I will change my text on that in my book (of which this paper is an exerpt).

Quote:
Interestingly, for all their usefulness, Ringeck is the only manuscript where these three techniques appear. One can find analogues to the 1st and 3rd readily in the glosses for the armoured combat. And, really, the 2nd technique is just a hand switch off of the 1st anyway.


With respect, I disagree. While, as you say, they are fairly common in Kampfringen (and, indeed, I took the counter to the First Wrestling that I show in my paper from Gladiatoria), they also show up in several unarmored sources. For example, the First Wrestling can be seen in Codex Wallerstein:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/139.jpg
And the Third Wrestling can be seen in Talhoffer 1467:
http://ardamhe.free.fr/biblio/talhoffer/img/203.jpg (the left-hand pair)
And while you and I both tend to interpret the First Wrestling as a grab to the inside of the knee, actually the text merely says to grab "in the hollow of the knee", which means the grab can be either inside or outside; if that's the case, then we see the First Wrestling several places in Talhoffer, as shown in the right-hand pair here:
http://ardamhe.free.fr/biblio/talhoffer/img/208.jpg (among other places)
Likewise, the right-hand pair in Talhoffer plate 203 that I linked to above seems to be showing the First Wrestling as well if you assume that the one performing the technique will be lifting his left arm over the head of his opponent as he lifts his leg, and this is the easiest way to do this technique.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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