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Corey D. Sullivan




Location: Canada
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Recessed Pommel Insets         Reply with quote

Hello everyone!

I'd just like to complement you first on the wonderful forum you have here. I've been looking around for a while, and never have I seen such a wealth of knowledge in one place.

I'm interested in learning about pommel insets. I've heard that wheel pommels with recesses would sometimes have wax or enamel seals inserted, or sometimes coins.

I have a sword that has such a pommel, and I'm looking to perhaps place something in it to liven it up. However, I can't seem to find any information on the practice.

It would be great if perhaps I could see some historical examples, or ones that people have done themselves, as well as the methods by which such things were done.


Thanks in advance!

"He had scantly finyshed his saienge but the one armye espyed the other lord how hastely the souldioures buckled their healmes how quikly the archers bent ther bowes and frushed their feathers how redely the byllmen shoke their bylles and proved their staves redy to appioche and loyne when the terrible trotnpet should sound the blast to victorie or deathe."
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R D Moore




Location: Portland Oregon
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HI Corey,

Try this link: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1301 it's a great thread about inlaid wheel pommels. Scroll -ing through it, you'll find some great pics and references.
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Corey D. Sullivan




Location: Canada
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks!

I looked through it, and while there are a few pictures, there isn't anything about what the inserts were made of, or how they were held in.

Hmm.

"He had scantly finyshed his saienge but the one armye espyed the other lord how hastely the souldioures buckled their healmes how quikly the archers bent ther bowes and frushed their feathers how redely the byllmen shoke their bylles and proved their staves redy to appioche and loyne when the terrible trotnpet should sound the blast to victorie or deathe."
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Coin like medallions were common suvenier items among pilgrimage routes or events. Other relics (strands of hair or bone maybe?, just speculating) may have been kept behind crystal lenses. There are several surviving swords that still retain a coin (the museum basis for the Albion Munich has a Vatican commemorative type coin featuring the Virgin Mary.)

I also wish I new how these were held in place historically. An adhesive might be plausible, and that is how some current collectors secure reproduction coins within reproduction swords.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Jan, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another topic that talks about this: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10910

Enamel discs (Edward III sword, and numerous others), medal medallions (the Munich sword and others), and coins (the Type XV with a coin of the Duke of Urbino) were all known. Oakeshott mentions mastic (or more properly, an adhesive made from the mastic tree) being used to hold them in. In other cases, the rim of the recess was folded down over the edges of the inset, securing it in place.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Corey D. Sullivan




Location: Canada
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Mon 07 Jan, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad!

I think the only question is how I would go about doing this myself. I was thinking of perhaps filling the recesses in the pommel with some sort of molten metal, perhaps silver, then engraving a design into that.

Is there any historical evidence of wax seals being used? I know they were used to seal letters, but could they have been used in sword pommels?

Obviously, wax would be much easier to work with then metal or enamel, the only problem being how to keep it firmly fixed. I could then carve it and use different colours to crate a design.

Either that or a coin of the right dimensions.

"He had scantly finyshed his saienge but the one armye espyed the other lord how hastely the souldioures buckled their healmes how quikly the archers bent ther bowes and frushed their feathers how redely the byllmen shoke their bylles and proved their staves redy to appioche and loyne when the terrible trotnpet should sound the blast to victorie or deathe."
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Justin King
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Jan, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you use a coin or disk of metal that is fitted tightly enough you might be able to "stipple" it or peen it into place. A pointed punch like a center-punch can be used to make small dents around the edge of the coin in the pommel recess. The flash or burr created by these dents will create tiny lips that hold the piece in. This requires that the pommel and/or the coin be of at least semi-malleable material and will leave visible marks but is a possible alternative to adhesives.
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Marton Pap




Location: Hungary
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Jan, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi!
Maybe if the lip of the housing for a coin diverges originally towards the inside, one can simply warm up the pommel and put the coin into it, like done with modern bimetallic coins, or put an empty coin into the housing and punch the motif afterwards.
Cheers
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Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Jan, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corey D. Sullivan wrote:
Thanks Chad!
I think the only question is how I would go about doing this myself. I was thinking of perhaps filling the recesses in the pommel with some sort of molten metal, perhaps silver, then engraving a design into that.


You may be able to braze at the pommel recess if you don't mind removing and replacing the grip. At least locally, you would need a temperature of around 700 F. Small torches sold in the plumbing section of the hardware store are plenty hot enough (around 2300 F with a pencil tip sized flame.) Knowing exactly what alloy the pommel is (may not be a spring steel) would help an expert in recommending what fluxes are required to get gold/silver, etc. to adhere. They typically don't adhere very well to spring steels. An intermediate oxide (often mercury and copper based) was used historically for gold gilding.

I would hate to go through all of that when a small dab of the adhesive "J B weld" (sold for about $5 at the hardware store adhesive section) should do the job provided that you have cleaned (degreaser, alcohol to rinse and quickly dry) and gently sanded the surface of the recess and whatever disk you are trying to affix.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Corey D. Sullivan




Location: Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Jan, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.


I guess I just need to find something the right size so I can epoxy it in. While the adhesives that they used historically may not have been that effective, I don't think they would have knocked it if they got had gotten their hands on some! Wink

Thanks everyone for your responses!

"He had scantly finyshed his saienge but the one armye espyed the other lord how hastely the souldioures buckled their healmes how quikly the archers bent ther bowes and frushed their feathers how redely the byllmen shoke their bylles and proved their staves redy to appioche and loyne when the terrible trotnpet should sound the blast to victorie or deathe."
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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was trying to find a coin or stone to put into my Type XIV pommel. both sides are different and finding just the right thing is tuff.
My wife put Amethyst gems in her Coustille dagger pommel. Looks nice.




Hard to see in this picture.

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Corey D. Sullivan




Location: Canada
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I was trying to find a coin or stone to put into my Type XIV pommel. both sides are different and finding just the right thing is tuff.


Yes, Gary, that's actually the sword I'm trying to fit something to. Quite nice for the price isn't it? Wink

It is indeed tough to find something the right size, and I really wouldn't fancy making my own seal in metal or enamel.

That was why I was initially thinking coloured wax. Easy to carve, easy to shape, easy to mix different colours. I just have no idea if it's accurate or not. I'm tending to think not, unless anyone has other evidence.

"He had scantly finyshed his saienge but the one armye espyed the other lord how hastely the souldioures buckled their healmes how quikly the archers bent ther bowes and frushed their feathers how redely the byllmen shoke their bylles and proved their staves redy to appioche and loyne when the terrible trotnpet should sound the blast to victorie or deathe."
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 29 May 2007
Reading list: 2 books

Posts: 337

PostPosted: Thu 10 Jan, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corey D. Sullivan wrote:
Quote:
I was trying to find a coin or stone to put into my Type XIV pommel. both sides are different and finding just the right thing is tuff.


Yes, Gary, that's actually the sword I'm trying to fit something to. Quite nice for the price isn't it? Wink

It is indeed tough to find something the right size, and I really wouldn't fancy making my own seal in metal or enamel.

That was why I was initially thinking coloured wax. Easy to carve, easy to shape, easy to mix different colours. I just have no idea if it's accurate or not. I'm tending to think not, unless anyone has other evidence.


Maybe if "WE" could get an old roman coin to fit? There is still some out there.

If you look at the photo, you'll my Type XIV at my side. It's my new favorite!

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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