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Peter Grassmann





Joined: 01 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Rondel dagger with ring pommel         Reply with quote

Hi,

I'm a weapon collector from Germany, collecting especially medieval and japanese weapons.

There are a few daggers in my collection I'd like to find out more about.
One of them is a particular type of rondel dagger which is also shown in the Rondel Dagger Spotlight article. It's the one with a ring pommel which is described as being "English" and dating from the mid-15th century.

My piece is most likely of German origin, bought from an auction house a few years ago. I think the blade has been shortened.

The Swiss National Museum showed me some of their pieces, which they date to the second half of the 15th century. In a German weapon book by the authors Mueller and Koelling, a dagger of the same style is just dated to the 15th century.

Does anyone know other examples of this style of dagger? Is it a late relative of the 14th century ring pommel daggers? How does it date?

Any info appreciated,

with many thanks in advance
Peter


PS: The color is a bit strange on the pictures. In reality, it has a dense black patina.



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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2007 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wow, this dagger is very similar to the Higgins Armory Museum (HAM# 1999.02.2). I have to see what other info I have on the higgins dagger. The English daggers most often have holes in the tang using "hollow rivets" discussed in some detail in this cool thread . the above dagger and the one form the Higgins only have holes in the pommel. I have to see if were possible that the dagger in the higgins and the one Peter posted above are from continent and not English.

It does seem that 15th c. is a good approximation of the date.

Alexi
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Peter Grassmann





Joined: 01 Dec 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Alexi, for the reply.

I don't think hollow rivets are particularly English. Many German weapons have hollow rivets too, e.g. one of my swords from the early 16th century. In my opinion, it's more likely that those daggers are some kind of "reminiscence" of the old ring pommel daggers (dating 14th c). But I'd like to hear more opinions.
What do you think of the blade, shortened or not? It's a bit short in relation to the grip.

Peter
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Leo Todeschini
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Location: Oxford, UK
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Dec, 2007 2:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a fairly short blade, but many daggers had short blades and it comes down to the maker who made it and what he thought was good or what he was able to make from the bits he had or whatever other reason the dagger ended up this way. The lines on the blade are very good so if it was shortened, I would think it was stripped down and reground and put back together again.

If it belonged to a rich man Ithink he would have a new blade fitted, if it belonged to a poor man I think he would have just had it roughly reground so it worked. I would say this blade was not reworked.

Tod

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Peter Grassmann





Joined: 01 Dec 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can anyone else add anything?

Any info appreciated.

Peter
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