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Howard Waddell
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Introducing... The Doge         Reply with quote

This is a much sweeter sword than I was expecting - I definitely want one. The multiple fullers in the ricasso are a very neat feature.



More photos here:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...an-xix.htm

And here:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...photos.htm

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
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http://filmswords.com
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Vincent Le Chevalier




PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find the "spur" on the ricasso especially intriguing. I wasn't aware of such features on this kind of swords until today... Is it pointed or square at the end? How does that work out with scabbards?

Keep them coming Cool

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
I find the "spur" on the ricasso especially intriguing. I wasn't aware of such features on this kind of swords until today... Is it pointed or square at the end? How does that work out with scabbards?

Keep them coming Cool


It is a square ended lug shaped out of the thickness of the back.
You see this lug just on these Venetian swords of the late 15th C.
The scabbard would have had a cut out to match, just like scabbards for swords with one two finger rings have tounge like extensions to cover the ricasso area that leave the "edges" exposed to the sides.

I know of no other swords other than these Venetian ones that have this lug-feature. It is pretty unique for those it seems.
The blade of the Doge is patterned closely after those surviving examples I“ve seen in the armoury of the Doge in Venedig and the Imperial armoury in Vienna. They are agile, thin and moderately broad cut and thrust swords with fine and crisp edges.

Other Venetian swords of this period show special extensions of the aft arm of the guard that seem to be designed to catch an opponents blade that would slide down the back edge of your sword. Perhaps this is a witness to special fencing techniques in use at that time and place? It makes me think of some guards shown in manuals for messer fighting.
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Justin King
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have been anticipating this one and am not disappointed-there aren't many repros of this type availible and it's exciting to see. Nice work, guys. Wish I could budget one into my collection...
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B. Stark
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, very awesome. Probably one of the most unique designs on the market and definitely would seem an excellent CnT sidesword. Great to see it brought into reality.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd never thought about this before seeing the finished Doge--compare its pommel to that of the Vince Evans repro of an early 16th c. Irish sword. I wonder why these elongated pommel forms suddenly appeared and disappeared in the late 15th and early 16th c. I know the construction is different, but the overall effect seems to be the same.


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-Sean

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I'd never thought about this before seeing the finished Doge--compare its pommel to that of the Vince Evans repro of an early 16th c. Irish sword. I wonder why these elongated pommel forms suddenly appeared and disappeared in the late 15th and early 16th c.....


Sean,
That's a great question for a new thread. Happy

Happy

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry for the hijack Blush
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This sword came out beautifully! The cripness of the fittings is especially impressive on this one! Great job.
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J. Erb




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The concept drawings of this sword on the Albion website caught my interest some time ago, and I've been waiting to see how this one would turn out. I am now genuinely amazed. I believe a salute to the talented people at Albion is in order for bringing such a sword to life -- it's truly a unique and elegant work of art.

Now I'm very interested in seeing the Machiavelli... Big Grin

"What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause, to use their own knowledge against them?"
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Addison C. de Lisle




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, I really like that a lot more than I thought I was going to. The crispness of the lines in the knuckleguard to crosspiece transition are really nice, and multiple fullers are a visual touch which I really like. Also, I really like how one side of the guard is smooth, whereas the other has the central line. It's an interesting contrast.

It seems to be a recurring pattern with me; I may not care for the initial drawing as much but I always end up liking the piece "in the steel'. Keep it up!

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Peter Cowan




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re:albion doge sword         Reply with quote

Howie, Another beautiful sword! Got to buy it along with ten other Albions. Looks like I will have to sell my house. Oh well, must stick to priorities. The Doge has some beautiful lines to it. Again my thanks to Peter and to Albion for keeping my dreams going.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Was sort of intrigued by the concept drawing but not excited by it but the finished product looks extremely appealing.

Very tempting but I'm already overcommitted to other projects so I'll let this one nag at me. i.e. will be looking at it often and tilting my head from side to side like a hungry python sizing up a fat bunny ! Laughing Out Loud

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I'd never thought about this before seeing the finished Doge--compare its pommel to that of the Vince Evans repro of an early 16th c. Irish sword. I wonder why these elongated pommel forms suddenly appeared and disappeared in the late 15th and early 16th c. I know the construction is different, but the overall effect seems to be the same.


Good to spot that one!
It is indeed a theme set with a different chord.
The elongated rivet block can definitely be seen as a different approach to achieve the same effect.
Also, think about the pommel for the "Solingen" sword: a wheel pommel with beveled edges but shaped in such a way that there is a longitudal ridge. Add a tall rivet block on that pommel, and it is actually one step closer to the Doge pommel.

I see them as branches on the same tree. How, when and why they branched of or grew into further variations escapes me, but there seems to be something going on.

I am glad you spotted this and brought it up. I think it brings an new perspective to the appreciation and understanding of the type of pommel of the Doge.
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Vince Labolito




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess since I named this one I should probably get one. The fact that it's BEAUTIFUL is certainly an added plus. I'd love to see what a historical scabbard for one of these looks like.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
- Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)
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Gavin Kisebach




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stylistically this isn't my cup of tea, but you've clearly captured some fascinating nuances. The more I look at it, the more questions arise. I am sure that there is nothing random in this design, and that each feature has some purpose.

The fluke or spur on the ricasso is really puzzling, but for no good reason I suspect it has more to do with scabbard design than any martial purpose. The pommel is intereasting as well, I would love to see how it was peened on. Do you have a picture of the end of the pommel?

The guard is interesting as well; such an unusual marriage of hard angles and sweeping curves. This is a truly fascinating sword.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I absolutely love this. I want one.. what can I sell? Hm.
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Dan P




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Dec, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What IS that spur on the back of the blade for? Is it for parrying with the back of the sword, or could it be for some kind of two-handed or halfswording technique? Since its made as part of the blade itself and not something attached or welded on afterward (I assume), it must add a certain degree of complexity to the creation of the most important part of the sword... so I cannot imagine that it serves nothing more than an ornamental purpose.

And oh yeah thats an awesome sword. Kind of dressy and formal and then kind of mean looking at the same time.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Dec, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
I'd never thought about this before seeing the finished Doge--compare its pommel to that of the Vince Evans repro of an early 16th c. Irish sword. I wonder why these elongated pommel forms suddenly appeared and disappeared in the late 15th and early 16th c. I know the construction is different, but the overall effect seems to be the same.


Good to spot that one!
It is indeed a theme set with a different chord.
The elongated rivet block can definitely be seen as a different approach to achieve the same effect.
Also, think about the pommel for the "Solingen" sword: a wheel pommel with beveled edges but shaped in such a way that there is a longitudal ridge. Add a tall rivet block on that pommel, and it is actually one step closer to the Doge pommel.

I see them as branches on the same tree. How, when and why they branched of or grew into further variations escapes me, but there seems to be something going on.

I am glad you spotted this and brought it up. I think it brings an new perspective to the appreciation and understanding of the type of pommel of the Doge.


This raises another question that, hopefully, is appropriate to the original subject of the thread. How does the pommel affect the Doge's handling? The answer to that question could suggest that if separate cultures came up with similar designs at roughly the same time, this pommel might not simply be an aesthetic anomaly. It might represent one culture's experiment in solving a common problem or creating a commonly valued advantage in handling. It would make sense that people in two cultures would think, "Maybe we can achieve X by elongating the pommel." The Italians did it like this, the Irish did it like that, and both discovered (maybe) that it wasn't worth the effort, or that the form tended to snag clothing, etc.

I hope that's not too far afield from the original topic.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Dec, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could this shape be intended to maximize the offensive potential of the pommel? Every other element of this sword seems so practical that it doesn't seem logical that the pommel shape would simply be an artistic touch. With this pommel as well as the knuckle guard (which also can be used offensively at close quarters) this sword just seems to be made in anticipation of coming to grips with an opponent.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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