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Considering all of this week's latest additions, please rate the quality of our efforts.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Oct, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Oct 22: myArmoury.com news and updates         Reply with quote

Today's update:


The Battle of Courtrai

An article by Alexi Goranov


Spotlight: The Great Helm

An article by Chad Arnow

As always, you can see our Complete History of Updates listed right from our home page.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Oct, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Re: The Courtrai article--The fact that the goedendag figured so prominently in this battle yet is largely forgotten in the reproduction arms & armour scene illustrates the general lack of respect that dogs polearms. Is it because this weapon in particular is so simple and can be made in any modern garage workshop? Does it lack appeal because it is "common" compared to swords or even halberds? Medieval Soldier shows a well-finished, slender and very elegant version in the hands of a 15th c....what?...referee? provost?... in a training scene, and that got me thinking about making one like that. Maybe that weapon is too different to be considered a goedendag, though.

Anybody with basic tools and skills could make one of these. Suitable haft material is often a problem where polearms are concerned, but pine was sometimes used for the weapons of what Waldman calls the "Morgenstern Group," and there's plenty of that wood available in 2x2x6. It wouldn't be hard to make a very nice version of this weapon.

Arms & Armor recently introduced one of these (see below,) and it's a good match for some of those illustrated in this article.

I'd love to see some of this site's resident tinkerers research, choose and make various goedendag types. Consider that a challenge. I'd love to see what members would come up with if called to muster. Big Grin

I'd like to make one of those slender 15th c. variants eventually, but I'm carrying two workbench projects right now and have no more than a few minutes per week to work on either of them. Sad



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Oct, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps the reason why few goedendag replicas exist is four-fold

1) It's not an exciting or elegant weapon. No curves to catch the eye. No geometric forms to intrigue the imagination. It's a crude spike on a stick, one step up from a pointy stick. Plain and simple.

2) How many variations can you come up with for a sword? Thousands, perhaps millions if you factor in fantasy elements too. How many variations on axes, spears, bows, halberds, etc. The goedendag is so simple it may be that makers shy away because of the lack of variation. Again, its a spike on a stick.

3) Lack of demand. Everyone wants a sword or an axe or a bow or a spear etc. The goedendag appeals to a very limited market within a very limited market. I wonder if A&A's goedendag is a big seller...

4) Shipping on hafted weapons like pollaxes and halberds is higher than on a smaller weapon. That, coupled with a lack of suitable haft material, draws people away from such weapons as compared to swords and the like.

Thus, the lowly goedendag lay largely forgotten.

Then again, I might be full of it too. Big Grin

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Oct, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
Perhaps the reason why few goedendag replicas exist is four-fold

1) It's not an exciting or elegant weapon. No curves to catch the eye. No geometric forms to intrigue the imagination. It's a crude spike on a stick, one step up from a pointy stick. Plain and simple.

2) How many variations can you come up with for a sword? Thousands, perhaps millions if you factor in fantasy elements too. How many variations on axes, spears, bows, halberds, etc. The goedendag is so simple it may be that makers shy away because of the lack of variation. Again, its a spike on a stick.

3) Lack of demand. Everyone wants a sword or an axe or a bow or a spear etc. The goedendag appeals to a very limited market within a very limited market. I wonder if A&A's goedendag is a big seller...

4) Shipping on hafted weapons like pollaxes and halberds is higher than on a smaller weapon. That, coupled with a lack of suitable haft material, draws people away from such weapons as compared to swords and the like.

Thus, the lowly goedendag lay largely forgotten.

Then again, I might be full of it too. Big Grin


I think all that is true. But the profit margin on one of these things might be significant. Maybe there's just no market, for the reasons we've mentioned. Well, I think everybody should have at least one!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Tim May




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PostPosted: Tue 23 Oct, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad and Alexi, the articles are great. The great helm is one of my favorite (along with everyone else Happy), and about as late as my period of interest goes. These articles are elegantly written and informative, something you both should be quite proud of. My favorite update so far!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Oct, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim May wrote:
Chad and Alexi, the articles are great. The great helm is one of my favorite (along with everyone else Happy), and about as late as my period of interest goes. These articles are elegantly written and informative, something you both should be quite proud of. My favorite update so far!


Tim,
Thanks so much for the kind words. The great helm is a favorite subject of mine, too, and we've wanted to publish an article on the subject for years. We actually had someone who volunteered to write it, but they never came through. Eventually I decided to see what I could come up with; hopefully people like it.

The illustrated examples are most of the surviving published ones out there. There are a handful or two of others, but we managed to get a nice variety of helms and most of the surviving examples of the form in the article.

Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If my count is correct, these are our 102nd and 103rd published feature articles. Happy
Happy

ChadA

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Ivo Malz




Location: Hanau, Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathan Blair wrote:
Perhaps the reason why few goedendag replicas exist is four-fold


May I fill in a few comments.

Quote:
1) It's not an exciting or elegant weapon. No curves to catch the eye. No geometric forms to intrigue the imagination. It's a crude spike on a stick, one step up from a pointy stick. Plain and simple.


Exactly.

Quote:
2) How many variations can you come up with for a sword? Thousands, perhaps millions if you factor in fantasy elements too. How many variations on axes, spears, bows, halberds, etc. The goedendag is so simple it may be that makers shy away because of the lack of variation. Again, its a spike on a stick.


Makers shy away because there is no market for them.

Quote:
3) Lack of demand. Everyone wants a sword or an axe or a bow or a spear etc. The goedendag appeals to a very limited market within a very limited market. I wonder if A&A's goedendag is a big seller...


For a market, there are several aspects.
For collectors, it is not fancy enough, and too little known to make a wall hanger to boast with.
For living history use it can serve for display only, because it is designed to deliver stout blows or thrusts. What made this thing an effective and nasty weapon renders it too dangerous for show fighting displays. The weight is in the front, so blows canīt be dealt safely because of the poor leverage, and thrusts... well, you know.
So, display only, and guess what is in favour for display only purposes? More fancy stuff.

Quote:
4) Shipping on hafted weapons like pollaxes and halberds is higher than on a smaller weapon. That, coupled with a lack of suitable haft material, draws people away from such weapons as compared to swords and the like.


Hehehe... at the local garden store I can buy shovel hafts made from ash, straight, tapered, proper length, for about 12 Euros.

Quote:
Thus, the lowly goedendag lay largely forgotten.


Well...seemingly the Goedendag was popular in Flanders and hardly anywhere else, despite the fact that it was easy and cheaply to manufacture. Among history buffs in the Netherlands and Belgium it is still known, yet not seen too often for above mentioned reasons- the events over there where I participated were pretty focused on battle displays, so... you know.

http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedendag_(wapen)
http://www.degoedendag.be/
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://...5%26sa%3DN


Regards

Ivo
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm. I can't help wondering about some things. Can the Flemish militias who fought at COurtrai really be described as "inexperienced?" If I'm not mistaken, this contradicts the statement found in Verbruggen's or DeVries' book (or both) that a considerable parts of these militias would have gathered some experience fighting in the numerous local wars of the period as well as being called out to serve the French crown in more significant wars. There is also an increasing amount of evidence that a fairly large proportion of men in these militias were fairly well armored in mail hauberks--and that these armored men would have formed the front ranks of their formation, increasing its effectiveness and protecting the less well-armored men at the same time.

I'd better go and look for my sources on this.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Nov, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am sure some would have been less experienced but it is more a word choice to me. Largely, many, most, somewhat etc. are relative words so it does not mean all were inexperienced or unarmoured. Even if the first row or tow were armoured it still would make a majority unarmoured. I have read some on this topic but think unless I missed something in the primary reading that it unlikely to find a detailed equipment inventory for them. He at least put 'inexperienced' in parenthesis. I enjoyed the feature very much. There is a book on Medieval Brabant by Sergio Boffa which is quite good for those who are interested. I am not terribly impressed with all Devris opinions of some of the battles etc. taking place in this region (Bevershout- for example I think he over simplifies some aspects and magnifies minimal factors to almost ridiculous scale that none of the chroniclers do) but he also has written some good things on them as well and really are quite useful.

The Great helm article is excellent! I have read it twice now and both times have found it exactly what one would hope for on a concise article on Great helms. The Wells Cathedral great helm would be awesome as an illustration for it though. Great work though and I am sure it will be one of the main stays for people looking online for info on great helms.

Great work gents!

RPM

PS- I want a godendag!!!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Nov, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
The Great helm article is excellent! I have read it twice now and both times have found it exactly what one would hope for on a concise article on Great helms. The Wells Cathedral great helm would be awesome as an illustration for it though. Great work though and I am sure it will be one of the main stays for people looking online for info on great helms.



Randall,
Thanks so much for the kind words. Happy There are so many period illustrations and depictions that we simply couldn't fit them all in. Worried

I'm glad you like the article. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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