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Charlee Garvin




Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue 31 Jul, 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject: Kriegsmessers and two handed Grosse Messers         Reply with quote

Greetings everyone,

I train in the Liechenauer WMA fight style as many of you do. My choice of weapon is the Kreigsmesser and the Grosse Messer. Why? Their brutal simplicity makes sense too me. But as I go through the various fechtbuchs, (Hanko Döbringer fechtbuch from 1389, Translated by David Lindholm is my favorite) I'm finding no specific mention of the single edged German Longsword technique. I have seen pictures of them being wielded in woodcuts. I know that through my WMA practice, most of the techniques of the longsword are universal, particulary in Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword, however, and you must agree, there is a slightly different science to handling a blade completely dedicated to the singe edge vs that of the double edge.

Have I missed anything in the german fight books? Admittedly, I have not read them all. I've been filling the gaps thus far with Shinkendo developed by Toshishiro Obata, a fourth generation samurai. What are your views?
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Tue 31 Jul, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The fechtbuch by Lekuchner is dedicated to the art of fighting with a messer...the only slight problem being that it is a single handed messer rather than a Grosse Messer. I'm sure you could translate some of the techniques for use with a two handed messer and many of the ringen techniques will probably still work, but I know it is not quite what you are looking for.

A friend of mine and I are trying to get it transcribed and translated, although, even with my degree level German, I'm finding it a tough job, so it might be a while before it's finished!

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Charlee Garvin




Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue 31 Jul, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Thanks Colin         Reply with quote

Colin,

That's really awesome--maybe David Lindholm in Sweden could lend a hand. Of course its your baby.
Would you e-mail me to let me know when its finished? I'll gladly buy a copy from you.

Regards,

Charlee
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Colin F. wrote:
A friend of mine and I are trying to get it transcribed and translated, although, even with my degree level German, I'm finding it a tough job, so it might be a while before it's finished!


I don't know if you're aware of this, but Dr. Jeff Forgeng has translated Leküchner and is publishing it with Chivalry Bookshelf. It's supposed to be out this year (although....).

Also, there's a transcription and translation into Polish on the Arma Poland web page if that would help.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: Thanks Colin         Reply with quote

Charlee Garvin wrote:
Colin,

That's really awesome--maybe David Lindholm in Sweden could lend a hand. Of course its your baby.
Would you e-mail me to let me know when its finished? I'll gladly buy a copy from you.

Regards,

Charlee


Charlee,
I'll try to remember to keep you updated, at the moment I'm only at the stage of transcribing the work. There is a lot of pretext in this manual before the plates and their descriptions...not to mention gothic script is painful for the brain!

cheers,

Colin

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 12:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Colin F. wrote:
A friend of mine and I are trying to get it transcribed and translated, although, even with my degree level German, I'm finding it a tough job, so it might be a while before it's finished!


I don't know if you're aware of this, but Dr. Jeff Forgeng has translated Leküchner and is publishing it with Chivalry Bookshelf. It's supposed to be out this year (although....).

Also, there's a transcription and translation into Polish on the Arma Poland web page if that would help.


Ah, I was a bit unaware of that Confused Never mind really, I think Dr Forgeng will do a rather better translation than I could do!

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 1:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Colin F. wrote:
Ah, I was a bit unaware of that Confused Never mind really, I think Dr Forgeng will do a rather better translation than I could do!


I didn't post that to dissuade you!

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Colin F. wrote:
Ah, I was a bit unaware of that Confused Never mind really, I think Dr Forgeng will do a rather better translation than I could do!


I didn't post that to dissuade you!


Ah fair enough Happy Thanks for the links, they will help me a lot! I've got a .pdf scan of the fechtbuch and each plate as a high quality .jpg image, so it's just a matter of working through the script and working out the motions Happy

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 3:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Colin F. wrote:
Ah fair enough Happy Thanks for the links, they will help me a lot! I've got a .pdf scan of the fechtbuch and each plate as a high quality .jpg image, so it's just a matter of working through the script and working out the motions Happy


Have you seen this: http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg430/0012
It's a text-only version of Lecküchner.

Here's a complete transcription of the full version into modern German (with commentary):
http://www.pragmatische-schriftlichkeit.de/tr...82_s_e.pdf

Also, you can go here to get a copy of the DVD made by members of Ochs on Lecküchner's Messerfechten:
http://www.historische-kampfkunst.de/
(Be sure to watch the sample clip!)

I hope that helps.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 4:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:

Have you seen this: http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg430/0012
It's a text-only version of Lecküchner.

Here's a complete transcription of the full version into modern German (with commentary):
http://www.pragmatische-schriftlichkeit.de/tr...82_s_e.pdf

Also, you can go here to get a copy of the DVD made by members of Ochs on Lecküchner's Messerfechten:
http://www.historische-kampfkunst.de/
(Be sure to watch the sample clip!)

I hope that helps.


Thanks! The first link doesn't seem to be working for me, but the other two have been very helpful Happy

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Charlee Garvin




Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 8:47 am    Post subject: German Translation         Reply with quote

Colin,

If your passion moves you to translate it, then do it! There are many translations of the Iliad, but each holds its own flavour. You may capture a concept that's not realized by the other. Please push on!

Charlee
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Charlee Garvin




Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Reading list: 11 books

Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject: Chiveraly Books         Reply with quote

Oh, Hugh--

Thanks so much for the reference.

Charlee
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Colin F.




Location: Bradford, UK
Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: German Translation         Reply with quote

Charlee Garvin wrote:
Colin,

If your passion moves you to translate it, then do it! There are many translations of the Iliad, but each holds its own flavour. You may capture a concept that's not realized by the other. Please push on!

Charlee


Well, keep an eye around here and I will get it done Happy It will take a while though if I want to get it to a quality that will be useful, but it's going to be a fun project!

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Chiveraly Books         Reply with quote

Charlee Garvin wrote:
Oh, Hugh--

Thanks so much for the reference.


You're quite welcome.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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