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Jeremiah Swanger




Location: Hershey, PA
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: A slight dilemma (costume-related)         Reply with quote

Well, folks, I've decided to put together a costume in anticipation for the Ren Faire at the Mount Hope winery here in PA this year.

I'm conflicted as to which way I'm going to go. I've checked out MRL's website and they have quite a few things I think I would really like. The only problem is, my finances can only allow for one costume at a time, so what I get will probably have to last me for a few years. I'm considering the possibilities of a Viking Age (I'll probably be trying for Anglo-Saxon), an early-medieval (I would REALLY like to do a Templar kit), and a late-medieval/early-renaissance costume.

I'm thinking of the following combination:

THIS tunic...

THESE pants...

And THESE boots...


... I should note that dead-on-balls historical accuracy isn't really my goal. My question is "would a die-hard Viking Age enthusiast be able to look at me without bursting out into hysterical laughter?"

I should also note that I'm trying to avoid wearing hosen. My college string ensemble and I once wore them with knee-length shirts to perform at a Madrigals dinner (Renaissance-themed cuisine and music performed by the chamber choir). They itched, they didn't move right, and I couldn't wait to get out of them. I prefer loose-fitting, breathable clothing, ESPECIALLY when I'm walking around at the Ren Faire in what is sure to be 90-degree heat with high humidity. Otherwise, historical accuracy would be higher on my list, across all periods.


I'm also torn as to what to do for swords and other weaponry. For a sword, I'm seriously considering the Huskarl sword in the Albion Mark lineup, as it can function as a "switch-hitter" between Viking-themed or Anglo-Saxon-themed costumes.

However, since I anticipate putting together a Templar kit at some point, I have also considered the "Stamford" and the "Norman" models, as they would be able to match both sets of costume...

Of course, by choosing something more culture-specific, like the Huskarl, I give myself a viable excuse to buy another sword somewhere down the line...


I'm afraid I already know the answer, but I'll ask for the sake of ritual...

If you guys were in my situation, what would you do?

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2007 11:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My thoughts... Not trying to be harsh here.

Tunic: Well its not too bad since its wool. However, being MRL you are likely to find someone else in the same thing.
Pants: Not very good IMO. You should go with baggy braes and linen chausses. These are alot different than the later period hosen it sounds like you are describing.
Boots: COMPLETELY AHISTORICAL. This is the worst of the bunch. Don't get 'em. Absolutely no evdience for anything like these. Get some ankle high turnshoes.

Might I suggest Historic Enterprises Dark Ages line.
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m...&c=101
Can't beat them for authenticity. Though the turnshoes they offer are of later design, so you should look to other places. I got mine from Revival Leather.

As for period, well I have to admit I do 11th C. Norman, so I'm alittle biased. We could always use more Saxon dogs.... errrr... I mean serfs.... Laughing Out Loud Wink
Go for the Stamford. If I wasn't waiting for a Reeve and Senlac, I'd order one. Although I must admit, the crossguard is alittle early for a templar impression, the teacozy is awesome...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 1:47 am    Post subject: Re: A slight dilemma (costume-related)         Reply with quote

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:



... I should note that dead-on-balls historical accuracy isn't really my goal. My question is "would a die-hard Viking Age enthusiast be able to look at me without bursting out into hysterical laughter?"



Yes, IF you skip the boots! They're not just historically inaccurate, but also monstrously ugly. I'd suggest Medieval design's viking shoes:

http://www.medievaldesign.com/darkageaccessories.html
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Martin Forrester




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 4:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:

....Pants: Not very good IMO. You should go with baggy braes and linen chausses. These are alot different than the later period hosen it sounds like you are describing.....


Cheap big baggy braies
http://www.matuls.pl/index.php?IDP=1&Lng=...ategoria=1

small item so post should be reasonable over to you lot, simple chausses are dead easy to make, cone shaped tube and a belt loop at the hip. If you want something more stylish,

http://www.randyasplund.com/browse/medieval/chauss2.html

Never liked footed hose myself, especially in the heat. A lot of people who dislike or are allergic to wool linen line their stuff, if your Chausses are baggy they shouldn't be too hot. Also bear in mind cheap wool is much more itchy than good stuff.

Oh, and definitely forget the boots. Please.

Oh, lets just pull out our swords and start whacking at each other, that'll solve everything!
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Allen Andrews




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I tried to post a reply and got a "Bad Gateweay" erro message. Sent you a PM instead Happy
" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "

Faramir son of Denethor

Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
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Shamsi Modarai




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oooh....costuming, one of my most favorite subjects. Big Grin

I would second the recommendation of the Historic Enterprises site, you definitely woudln't get laughed at in most of those clothes (by me at least). But then, I am biased towards Anglo-Saxon and Viking styles (they are sooo appealing to this lady!). Razz

Whatever style you go with, definitely do not choose those boots. Shoes, as my more fashion-conscious sisters have told me many times, affect the look of the entire outfit. Get some sexy winingas instead. Wink

Best of luck, and post some pics please when your garb is complete! Big Grin

Wa biš žam že sceal of langože leofes abidan.

~ The Wife's Lament
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shamsi Modarai wrote:
Whatever style you go with, definitely do not choose those boots. Shoes, as my more fashion-conscious sisters have told me many times, affect the look of the entire outfit. Get some sexy winingas instead. Wink

Have you ever heard the joke "The modern English language is the result of Norman soldiers flirting with Saxon maids"? Wink
But yes, winnigas will really help put a finishing touch on the soft kit. I own two pair of Historic Enterprise winningas, and I love them, though as a Norman, I can also go with the criss-cross leg wraps. Which reminds me, I need to make some criss-cross linen leg wraps, since my winningas are rather warm in the summer...
Also, I forgot to mention. Don't go with any of MRL's belts in general. In this period 9th-12th C, belts were quite thin. Rarely more than an 1". The same goes for the sword belts, since most evidence points to Viking and Saxon culture carrying their swords by baldric.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Jeremiah Swanger




Location: Hershey, PA
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 12:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay, everyone, I got it-- lose the boots.

Out of curiosity, as every one of the websites carry Viking Age shoes, were boots not invented yet?

I also posted this topic in SFI, and a few of them recommended Historic Enterprises as well. So it looks like they're a safe bet.

Seeing as how they also sell both Anglo-Saxon and Viking pattern trousers, I feel somewhat vindicated in my choice of pants...

So, a few more questions:

1) I see Historic Enterprises sell winingas. Does anyone carry these linen leg-wraps you Norman guys (whom, despite their little squeaker of a victory on Senlac Hill, are still, in the end, French) are talking about? They sound a little easier to wear in the summer than the heavy wool winingas...

2) I was thinking about getting a scabbard/suspension/belt set-up when I order the sword, so period accuracy shouldn't be an issue there. Out of curiosity, were there NO belt-suspended scabbards at this time, or were they just UNCOMMON? In my years of entertaining this hobby, I have learned that is an important distinction...

Thanks everyone, so far. Keep the pointers coming!

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremiah, you and I don't live too far from each other (relatively speaking). We ought to try to get together one weekend at the PA Ren Faire.

I personally will not buy any more clothing or accessories from MRL or their clones. My reason? Three words: cotton, rayon, and spandex. That equals hot. Nevermind the historical inaccuracies in design.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
1) I see Historic Enterprises sell winingas. Does anyone carry these linen leg-wraps you Norman guys (whom, despite their little squeaker of a victory on Senlac Hill, are still, in the end, French) are talking about? They sound a little easier to wear in the summer than the heavy wool winingas...

As far as I've found, no one makes the criss-cross leg wraps. There is no evidence for anyone wearing them but Normans anyway, so they'd be out for a Saxon/Viking impression. And even on Normans, the criss-cross is reserved for the Milite class.
Oh, and they may have lived in France, but they were the children of Viking settlers, and William and the other Normans were reminded that they were considered little better by King Henry and Count Geoffrey of Anjou several times. They didn't call them the "Northmen" for nothing. Exclamation
And they kicked Saxon butt several more times than at Senlac Hill. It would take 6 more years to "pacify" England. You're forgetting we kicked your butt at Hereford, Exeter, York, and the Fens, just to name the major victories. That's not counting the minor revolts. Wink But I digress
Quote:
2) I was thinking about getting a scabbard/suspension/belt set-up when I order the sword, so period accuracy shouldn't be an issue there. Out of curiosity, were there NO belt-suspended scabbards at this time, or were they just UNCOMMON? In my years of entertaining this hobby, I have learned that is an important distinction...

For the Saxons, maybe. But for the Vikings, all evidence points toward baldrics.

R. Montague Smith (who can trace his family roots all the way back to a Norman, Drogo de Montaigu. So if I sounded defensive, now you know Laughing Out Loud )
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Shawn Henthorn




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Smith,...what a nice Saxon name Big Grin not really I am just kidding. for the pants I would go with these http://cgi.ebay.com/FLAX-NORMAN-PANTS-TROUSER...dZViewItem
as I think the braise and chuasses seem a little off for a viking costume and www.revival.us has a new set of fiking shoes.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 5:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Shawn Henthorn wrote:
Smith,...what a nice Saxon name Big Grin not really I am just kidding. for the pants I would go with these http://cgi.ebay.com/FLAX-NORMAN-PANTS-TROUSER...dZViewItem
as I think the braise and chuasses seem a little off for a viking costume and www.revival.us has a new set of fiking shoes.
Laughing Out Loud The funny thing is my Montague ancestors didn't marry my Smith ancestors until they got to the New World. A certain 25th generation descendent of Drogo, Catherine Montague, married a Lawrence Smith in 1774. They had a son, John Montague Smith. He's my great great great etc... grandfather. Ever since then, Montague has been passed as a middle name to ONLY the first son, making me the first son of the first son going back 7-8 generations. In fact if it weren't for Catherine Montague being a woman, I would be in an unbroken line of male descendents to Drogo (darn it all!!!)
Anyhow, back on topic. Braes and chausses were most certainly worn by the Saxons in the 11th C, though not exclusively. Later period vikings used them as well. In fact, I'm pretty sure that by the 11th C. the only people left regularly wearing trousers were the eastern vikings, like the Rus...
Yeah, that's the shoe I use, but currently in black (you can see them on my avatar). Balck isn't very historical (well Iron Oxide is, but...) so I am eagerly awaiting the release in brown....

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After looking around abit, I have found references to braes and chausses found at Hedeby, so they most certainly were worn by Vikings....
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Shawn Henthorn




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm sure you are correct about them being in use but I guess it is more of a personal taste in viking wear. Of coarse I would be useing an earlier persona and the thought of braise and chausses in an Iceland winter Eek!
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:

As far as I've found, no one makes the criss-cross leg wraps. There is no evidence for anyone wearing them but Normans anyway, so they'd be out for a Saxon/Viking impression. And even on Normans, the criss-cross is reserved for the Milite class.


Interesting. From the way most vendors market Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and Norman wear, everything seems to be lumped together. But the wrap example does show some interesting cultural influence on dress.

Robin Smith wrote:

Oh, and they may have lived in France, but they were the children of Viking settlers, and William and the other Normans were reminded that they were considered little better by King Henry and Count Geoffrey of Anjou several times. They didn't call them the "Northmen" for nothing. Exclamation
And they kicked Saxon butt several more times than at Senlac Hill. It would take 6 more years to "pacify" England. You're forgetting we kicked your butt at Hereford, Exeter, York, and the Fens, just to name the major victories. That's not counting the minor revolts. Wink But I digress


Then its probably best I don't bring up how the great William the Conqueror "kicked the bucket"... Wink

Harold Godwinsson's last laugh? Perhaps so...

Robin Smith wrote:

For the Saxons, maybe. But for the Vikings, all evidence points toward baldrics.

R. Montague Smith (who can trace his family roots all the way back to a Norman, Drogo de Montaigu. So if I sounded defensive, now you know Laughing Out Loud )


So I'll stick with a baldric, then, if I want to do more than one theme. I would very much like to do an Anglo-Saxon theme, since they might be closer to my German ancestry than the Vikings or Normans. Also, it seems everyone and their brother does Viking and Norman, so an Anglo-Saxon kit would be special, in comparison.

Does anybody know of any artisans who specialize in Anglo-Saxon artwork (jewelry, scabbard chapes, etc.)?

It must be pretty neat to be able to trace your lineage that far. My entire family tree drops off the face of the earth before the 30- Year War...

As for the braies and chausses-- while I don't doubt their relevance to the period in question, I simply prefer pants. Big Grin

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anybody know of any artisans who specialize in Anglo-Saxon artwork (jewelry, scabbard chapes, etc.)?


Have you seen this site? I've not had any experience with them myself, but there are some interesting looking pieces:

http://www.quietpress.com/

Some of it is quite SCA-ish, and there are some other ahistorical pieces, but some look quite good to my eyes.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremiah: If you are doing 11th C. Saxon, a sword belt would work too. I was just saying a Baldric for sure if you were going to go Viking. To be honest, the Bayeux tapestry and other 11th C. sources are so vague that many swords seem to stay at warriors hips as if by magic. Some were certainly held beneath the hauberk, but most seem to hang there, without either a baldric or belt. So its really up to how you want to interpret it.
You know what screams Saxon to me (well besides a broken back seax) Dane Axe! If you really want to stand out as a Saxon, get a Dane Axe...
As for the chausses vs pants. Well thats one of the good things about this period, if you want to go trousers, there is still evidence. However, when you get around to a century later, and your templar kit, sorry bud your gonna have to if you want to be anywhere close to authentic
As for the death of William: Swollen naked body on the floor??? Sounds like the Elvis of the 11th C. to me. I could make a joke about exploding all over the scene, but it would be in very bad taste (or smell)... Laughing Out Loud Razz Wink

David: Raymond's Quiet Press is awesome. Though I have never used them, several friends have, and the product is always top notch. http://www.jelldragon.com/index.htm is a good place to look too. I am making a belt with some fittings I purchased from them.
Jeremiah, you should check both of those places, you should find enough bling between the two places to flesh out your kit. Make sure to search the belt fittings in crafts at Jelling Dragon, as they have some nice Saxon belt stuff.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Jeremiah Swanger




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:

Jeremiah: If you are doing 11th C. Saxon, a sword belt would work too. I was just saying a Baldric for sure if you were going to go Viking. To be honest, the Bayeux tapestry and other 11th C. sources are so vague that many swords seem to stay at warriors hips as if by magic. Some were certainly held beneath the hauberk, but most seem to hang there, without either a baldric or belt. So its really up to how you want to interpret it.


Thanks for clarifying, Robin. It's nice to know that going Anglo-Saxon opens up some interesting options. I think I'll stick with a baldric, so that the set-up is not such a one-trick pony. I think versatility is a good thing. Big Grin

Robin Smith wrote:

You know what screams Saxon to me (well besides a broken back seax) Dane Axe! If you really want to stand out as a Saxon, get a Dane Axe...


You read my mind. I've been giving A&A's version some serious thought, as well as their Viking Spear. The only problem with said weapons is that I cannot take them with me to the Faire, where period arms are not only required to be sheathed, but also bound so that they cannot be drawn from their scabbards or sheathes.

But, as the Danish axe is an integral part of the whole Huskarl theme, you can rest assured that I will get one. And when I do, I'm going to take Shamsi up on her suggestion and post a pic of myself in my complete kit. I'm going to hold said axe menacingly in the photo and write the following caption: "A sight that would make a proud Northman wet himself!" Laughing Out Loud

Robin Smith wrote:

As for the chausses vs pants. Well thats one of the good things about this period, if you want to go trousers, there is still evidence. However, when you get around to a century later, and your templar kit, sorry bud your gonna have to if you want to be anywhere close to authentic


Out of curiosity, what did make self-respecting men trade in their trousers for, what amount to, boxer shorts with stockings attached to them? Did their wives finally get their way, or what?

Robin Smith wrote:

David: Raymond's Quiet Press is awesome. Though I have never used them, several friends have, and the product is always top notch. http://www.jelldragon.com/index.htm is a good place to look too. I am making a belt with some fittings I purchased from them.

Jeremiah, you should check both of those places, you should find enough bling between the two places to flesh out your kit. Make sure to search the belt fittings in crafts at Jelling Dragon, as they have some nice Saxon belt stuff.


Thanks for the tips, Robin and David. I'm checking out some of their belt hardware right now and I like some of what I see. What's interesting so far is that, where Celtic art is strongly plant-themed, and Norse art is strongly animal-themed, many of these Anglo-Saxon pieces seem to marry the two, often incorporating horse heads or what even appear to be bull heads with leaves and knotwork.

Thanks for the finds so far! If you have some more, keep 'em coming!

"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."

- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2007 1:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did make self-respecting men trade in their trousers for, what amount to, boxer shorts with stockings attached to them? Did their wives finally get their way, or what?


It's all about showing the legs, man, the legs! You've got a very well-toned, well-muscled leg, so you'd want to show it off for everyone to see, don't you?

I find it a little weird to hear of so much discomfort caused by wearing hosen. But then, I've never worn any but homemade ones tailor-made for my legs, so maybe I got a better fit (and much better comfort) than most.

BTW, what are these "square tied-on leggings" that are so derided among historical reenactment societies? Maybe I've had rather too little exposure to the bloopers and anachronisms around here. I surely wish one of those costume guide pages would post pictorial examples of bad/inappropriate clothing once in a while!
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremiah Swanger wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did make self-respecting men trade in their trousers for, what amount to, boxer shorts with stockings attached to them? Did their wives finally get their way, or what?

Skin tight bell bottoms? 80's giant hairspray hair? 90's flannel in the summer? Piercings? WTF?! Man, people wear fashions that other periods find rediculous almost every decade, and that's right now. So of course when you go back that far, you think it looks really strange. Plus, I have the feeling that once you get around to trying on a pair in secret, of well fitted and made chausses, you won't hate 'em so much. Believe me I wasn't thrilled with the idea to begin with, but I've learned to live with them.
One idea I had, though its just theory, and I have no evidence. Maybe its tied to Christianization? Alot of fashions and ideas were moved away from, as they were associated with Pagans and Pagan peoples. Or at the very least, as groups converted, they took on styles of their Christian neighbors...
It's still early, maybe I'm not making sense...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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