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C. Stackhouse




Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: My first (mostly completed) hauberk         Reply with quote

This is the first hauberk I have made, they are 1/4 inch id rings made of 14 ga galvanized steel.

As you can see they are sleeveless...in all my attempts at making sleeves I have found they are either far too baggy or binding on my arms.

Does anyone have some tips to help me finally complete it?... I've just started making mail and have tried almost all the online tutorials out there.





Sorry for the crappy pics :P

Above all else, be armed

-Niccolo Machiavelli
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Reinier van Noort





Joined: 13 Dec 2006

Posts: 165

PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The sleeves will fit better if the direction of the "lines" (horizontal on your body if you made the shirt right) is also horizontal on the arms with the arms held down. That means that the sleeves are not a continuation of the body part of the shirt. You can achieve this by making a diagonal contact on the shoulders where the orientation of the maille lines changes (which is easy to find on the internet how to do) or you can use this pattern (which I came across yesterday):

http://www.manningimperial.com/articles/Europ...uction.pdf

This seems to solve most if not all problems with sleeves.

School voor Historische Schermkunsten

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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 16 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reinier van Noort wrote:
The sleeves will fit better if the direction of the "lines" (horizontal on your body if you made the shirt right) is also horizontal on the arms with the arms held down. That means that the sleeves are not a continuation of the body part of the shirt. You can achieve this by making a diagonal contact on the shoulders where the orientation of the maille lines changes (which is easy to find on the internet how to do) or you can use this pattern (which I came across yesterday):

http://www.manningimperial.com/articles/Europ...uction.pdf

This seems to solve most if not all problems with sleeves.


The pattern in that document does look pretty good.

In my case, I went ahead and made the sleeves as a continuation of the pattern. The tricky part with this is to get the armpit right. I haven't closed the seam there, but I came up with a very simple solution that keeps it from bunching up, and if I hold my arms out straight, the seam lines up (I could close the seam, and it wouldn't start pulling until I lift my arms a bit beyond horizontal, but since it's open, it won't pull at all currently).

What I did was create the body tube, and the sleeve tubes separately. Each had a diagonal edge where the armpit was to be joined, such that when the shoulders are connected with their vertical seam, the diagonal edges overlap a bit while laid flat. Hard to visualize, I know. I drew a quick sketch based on memory...

(and yes, those are coconut shells on my belt near my hand in the photograph) Happy



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-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
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Olivier L-Beaulieu




Location: Québec, Canada
Joined: 27 Jan 2007

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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First, I will say to you that your hauberk is really nice! For your sleeves, I would go with Ed's technique. Anyway, it seems that the two techniques are historically accurate or, at least, plausible.

Just for information, how much does it weight?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ed Toton wrote:

(and yes, those are coconut shells on my belt near my hand in the photograph)


But, where did you find a coconut?

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What are you going to be doing in this hauberk? By that I mean will you be fighting in it, or is it primarily for display? If you will be fighting in it, you will find alittle (not too much) loosness in it is your friend. Also, are you going short or long sleeve? Here is a pic of me in my hauberk that I fight in. It moves freely.
As far as the 45 degree sleeves go, I always thought that was a feature of mantle top hauberks. I'm no expert, but I don't believe the 45 degree sleeve is historical on the average T-style hauberk most reenactors wear.
(...and before anyone says anything, yes I have put a chinstrap on my helm since this was taken Razz ...)



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Last edited by Robin Smith on Wed 20 Jun, 2007 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
As far as the 45 degree sleeves go, I always thought that was a feature of mantle top hauberks. I'm no expert, but I don't believe the 45 degree sleeve is historical on the average yoke style hauberk most reenactors wear.


I also have a set that was made for me that has the sleeves attached at a 45-degree angle, sloping downward. The seam splits the difference (22.5 degrees). I find that while it fits well standing upright, it severely limits your arm mobility, since the angle of the sleeves prevents you from lifting your arms well. Lifting your arms to horizontal forces you to pull a good twenty pounds or more (in this case it's 3/8" ID 14g galvanized steel, 40 pound hauberk) of the lower part of the hauberk up with them. I decided never to mount sleeves at a downward angle again.

In the picture below you can sort-of see the angle of the shoulder seams. I don't wear this one anymore.

EDIT: this isn't the one pictured with my kit in the earlier message.



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-Ed T. Toton III
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Last edited by Ed Toton on Wed 20 Jun, 2007 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ed Toton




Location: Northern VA
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling Polden wrote:
Ed Toton wrote:

(and yes, those are coconut shells on my belt near my hand in the photograph)


But, where did you find a coconut?


It's a migratory coconut. Happy

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
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Reinier van Noort





Joined: 13 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jun, 2007 10:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I meant to attach the sleeves in the normal T-shape only with a diagonal contact so that the orientation of the rings changes.
Like this: http://www.dcwireworks.com/howto/weaves/45degree1/instruct.html

We did that when we made some hauberks in our group, though I must admit that I never wore one of those as I had my won haubergeon...

School voor Historische Schermkunsten

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C. Stackhouse




Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jun, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
What are you going to be doing in this hauberk? By that I mean will you be fighting in it, or is it primarily for display? If you will be fighting in it, you will find alittle (not too much) loosness in it is your friend. Also, are you going short or long sleeve? Here is a pic of me in my hauberk that I fight in. It moves freely.
As far as the 45 degree sleeves go, I always thought that was a feature of mantle top hauberks. I'm no expert, but I don't believe the 45 degree sleeve is historical on the average yoke style hauberk most reenactors wear.
(...and before anyone says anything, yes I have put a chinstrap on my helm since this was taken Razz ...)


I haven't really decided. I don't really have anyone to fight in it, but I plan on eventually getting into such things. I was planning for a 3/4 sleeve the haurberk currently weighs about 38 lbs.

As for your sleeves, Robin, I notice that the inside half hangs down farther than the outside, is this a normal occurance?
(I'm the only person I know who actually makes things like this, so I don't have many examples to go by other than random sources)

Above all else, be armed

-Niccolo Machiavelli
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Jun, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, assuming the sleeve is a simple tube design. Its the byproduct of the armpit being lower than the shoulder Wink No, seriously they all do that unless you specifically use the 45 degree method, with shaped sleeves. You will notice Ed Toton's does the same over his vambrace
By the way, I would suggest either doing half sleeves or full sleeves. 3/4 seem to be fairly historically uncommon. In my period (11th C) half sleeves are the rule. Within 100 yrs, full sleeves were the rule. So things changed quickly, and there doesn't seem to be much in between in period depictions. Also if you start fighting in it, you will find it starts to bunch up in your elbow. Mine were longer by about 2 inches, and I cut them down for these reasons.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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C. Stackhouse




Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Jun, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i know that 3/4 is historically inacurrate, I just wanted something that would cover most of my arms yet leave a lot of room between the end of the sleeve and my wrist.

If bunching is a big problem I might just take your advice. Hell, at the very least it would save a couple hundred rings. lol

Above all else, be armed

-Niccolo Machiavelli
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 21 Jun, 2007 4:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the historical solutions to the "bunching" problem was to tie leather thongs around the mail at forearm, upper arm, thigh, ankles, wrists, etc.. I doubt it will help armpit areas, but should make a difference at elbows, knees, etc.

This was recorded as early as the 1180's in a moral treatise on knightly conduct and equipment by Ralph Niger. I don't have the source but have seen it referred to by respectable authors such as David Crouch. This was carried out to an extent that it even was recorded as fashionable (early to mid 13th century) to leave long loose ends of the ties that would crack like whips while knights rode in earlier era tournaments.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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