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Eric S
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 Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Riveted mail coif, carbon dated to the 1200s, before and after conservation, detail views.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 6:22 am Post subject: |
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I'd be very surprised if that was 13th century. Do you have a cite for the original report?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Bjorn Hagstrom
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | I'd be very surprised if that was 13th century. Do you have a cite for the original report? |
That mail coif was found in a church tower on Gotland (Tofta chuch) I have a newsclip (in Swedish http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?pro...el=603210) stating that the dating of 1250 is not related to the rings istelf, but carbon-dating of the leather thong that was found looped into it. Also the finding place was inside a wall of the church tower, a structure known to be completed 13th century. So not the hardest of evidence, but it seems plausible enough. If requested I can probably hunt down some names of involved people..
There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. That dating seems pretty solid.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Interesting in that it resembles other mail from the same general area. There is growing evidence that this could be a regional style, similar to the watershed-aspect of German mail.
http://www.erikds.com
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Eric S
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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The Tofta coif is alternating solid and riveted rings, with round rivets.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | The Tofta coif is alternating solid and riveted rings, with round rivets. |
Matt, I am not seeing round rivets here.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Eric,
Looks can be deceiving. Three images from the article show a side view of what might be mistaken for a pyramidal wedge rivet, but the sectioned views clearly show a round rivet rather than a wedge. The bulge might be formed by drifting the hole for the rivet, or by the riveting tongs.
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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Thanks. That dating seems pretty solid. |
Although they give 1250, I'm certain the single and double-sigma ranges on the C14 aren't that precise. There is every probability that the 13th century dating is correct within a broader range, and there is sufficient 13th century artwork showing this square-front variant within the 13th century.
Northern European examples shown in miniatures:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?tags=...coif"
Here's a Swedish example (of a conquered Dane?) from Kullerstads Kyrka dated to c. 1250.
http://armourinart.com/5123/15861/
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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bjorn Hagstrom wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | I'd be very surprised if that was 13th century. Do you have a cite for the original report? |
That mail coif was found in a church tower on Gotland (Tofta chuch) I have a newsclip (in Swedish http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?pro...el=603210) stating that the dating of 1250 is not related to the rings istelf, but carbon-dating of the leather thong that was found looped into it. Also the finding place was inside a wall of the church tower, a structure known to be completed 13th century. So not the hardest of evidence, but it seems plausible enough. If requested I can probably hunt down some names of involved people.. |
Bjorn, your link is not working, do you have another? So far I have not found any info on what exactly was tested.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 11 Nov, 2013 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Eric,
Looks can be deceiving. Three images from the article show a side view of what might be mistaken for a pyramidal wedge rivet, but the sectioned views clearly show a round rivet rather than a wedge. The bulge might be formed by drifting the hole for the rivet, or by the riveting tongs. |
Mart your right, its different when you have all of the information, do you have a link to this article you mentioned, I can not seen to find it.
Last edited by Eric S on Tue 12 Nov, 2013 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mart Shearer
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Bjorn Hagstrom
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| Posted: Tue 12 Nov, 2013 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Bjorn, your link is not working, do you have another? So far I have not found any info on what exactly was tested. |
Glad Mart sorted out the link. My stylistic misuse of parenthesis are entirely to blame 
But the basic facts from the Metallurgic analysis states that the rivets are round, and speculations on wether it can be assumed that it is drawn wire or not, and compares the chemical composition to the riveted rings, if they possibly are made from the same stock.
I'm more interested in the radio-carbon analysis actually. It makes sense to use the associated leather thong for dating, but I'm fairly certain there is a span of possible darlings and a statistical deviation with some factor of uncertainty. In geological perspective +/- 100 years is peanuts, but here it can make more of a difference. There was an armed conflict between the City of Wisby and the surrounding area in 1288, and one of the leaders of the Gotlanders was from Tofta. It is not far fetched to associate this item with that conflict. Still 13th century though..
There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 12 Nov, 2013 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Sorry, I thought the analysis article was included in your link.
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Thanks Mart, quite a bit more information in your links.
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This is a standard topic