[R.M. Henson]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

Couple of comments ... I did some research on this recently..

The Japanese did use stand-alone mail armor (called Kusari Gosuko or Kusari Katabira) though it was not a prestige or popular armor for Samurai. Probably because it was not that great against arrows (and later arquebus balls). Like most archery oriented cultures lamellar was preferred but not as universal as sometimes depicted.

Japanese butted mail is double ringed like a key chain, this probably makes it a bit more durable than the ren-faire type butted mail. But it's also often much thinner wire, in 16th and 17th Century Japanese panoplies that I've seen the wire was about as thick as a paper clip and the links no more than 3mm or so, and the weave was very open with gaps between each link (a sort cross pattern). These were linking small iron plates in sleeves and side of the armor. It was much weaker than equivalent European, Central Asian or South Asian mail that I've seen.

It is my understanding that the Japanese adopted riveted mail shortly after European contact in the 16th Century widely if not universally, and also purchased mail shirts in some quantity from the Portuguese, the Dutch and the Spanish. In fact it was mentioned in surviving European records from the 16th Century as a significant trade cargo. The first cargo brought to Japan by William Adams included a chest containing 100 mail shirts IIRC.

Japanese armor came to incorporate foreign elements in the 16th Century and armor incorporating European breast plates were prestige armors. Indigenous Japanese armor began to feature solid or solid-riveted breast plates shortly after European contact and the traditional laced kozane (lamellar) began to decline as the principle element of Japanese armor. The old fashioned ô-yoroi was replaced by heavier 'modern' European style armors called Toudei-Gusoku or Tosei Gusoku, some of them were proofed (some surviving do have proof marks). They even created a 'Nanban' (foreign) style version of a peascod breastplate which was called a pigeon breast armor IIRC.

J

[Eric S]

[Ben C.]

I live in Japan and have observed pretty much the same thing that R.M. Henson mentioned earlier in this thread. All the authentic suits I've seen incorporating mail seemed to have used it as a either secondary defence on lower limbs and joints and to connect plates together. They may have also had a decorative purpose as all of these suits were worn by nobles who likely had little front line involvement in battles. The rings were all fairly thin and had a much wider diameter compared to what I am used to with period European mail. I've never seen them tested but I have little doubt that they would be too much better than modern butted mail in terms of resisting a heavy thrust. However in saying that they were probably never intended to stop a spear thrust but more likely the mail was there to prevent glancing blows, light cuts and stabs from swords and daggers, especially while grappling. As R.M. Henson stated the primary target for a spear, i.e. the torso, head and upper legs, were covered with much thicker lamellar /scale plates in the suits I've witnessed.

That's not to say that the Japanese didn't make other types of mail, this just my personal observations of surviving pieces at museums.

Unfortunately I don't really have much in the way of photos of them but I'll post up some that I took at Himeji castle. I have to apologise in advance for the low quality of the pictures but they were taken with a phone camera in a rush due to me having to act as a sudden tour guide to a group of impatient non-Japanese speaking engineers. I believe the armour dates from the 16th century although it may possibly be 17th.

[Eric S]

[Eric S]

[Chad Arnow]

Eric S,
The tone in a couple of your posts in this thread is unnecessary. Please keep the sarcasm out of your posts.

Thank you.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Jojo Zerach]

I'm suprised by how much the Japenese-made butted European 4-1 maile looks like modern butted maile, especially the "no frills" shirt closeup.

Did Europeans ever use butted maile, I wonder?

[Dan Howard]

Butted mail would be perfectly suitable in a civilian Japanese context where the primary threat would come from a sword. If the links are small enough then it would even provide passable protection from a knife or spear thrust. I'm not sure how any of this is relevant. The principal argument is that butted mail is inferior to riveted mail. There is a copious amount of literature to support this conclusion. No amount of wishful thinking can change the fact that Japanese butted mail is less capable of resisting weapons than Europen/Indian/Middle Eastern riveted mail. But, just because it is less effective does not mean that it is ineffective.

[Eric S]

[Eric S]

[Jojo Zerach]

Is the image of the Samurai a photograph? I thought it was a painting of some sort, due to the colors. Though the grass at the bottom does indeed look out of focus.

[R.M. Henson]

[Brawn Barber]

We've done extensive testing on piercing attacks against both butted and riveted maille. Although they were both backed with leather (as a blunt additional defense) the butted maille greatly helped the slashing attacks but failed miserably against a stanch piercing attack. The riveted maille, although occasionally permitting a separation of a ring or two was much superior in preventing a piercing attack than the butted mail. In cases where penetration of the butted maille presented a 3" breach, the riveted maille yielded only about 1/16". The tests were performed with 8mm ID rings and both 7/8 oz and 13/15 oz leather.

[Joshua R]

How did the riveted maille serve in relation to the butted maille in the slashing/cutting tests?

[P. Cha]

[Eric S]

[R.M. Henson]

[Nathan Robinson]

Okay, people, enough is enough. This topic has already had a moderator notice in it and now I'm here. Knock it off. Play nice or get booted. Simple as that. I've no tolerance for this.